Will we reach AGI before Stripe goes public? | Equity Podcast

Hello and welcome back to equity a Podcast about the business of startups Where we unpack the numbers and the Nuance behind the headlines today is March 1st my name is Alex and I'm joined Today by senior Tech reporter on the Fintech beat it's marann aeto hey Maranne how are you Alex I'm good but I Think I need another one of those Espressos that we were talking about Before the show Maryann and I if you Didn't know walk around toing behind us A intravenous drip of coffee just to Keep our blood coffee levels where they Need to be illegal in several States but Very good for podcasting Jokes Aside the Maran today is something of a special or Important day for my history of tech Runch which is that I think the pay Wall Came off of All Tech wunch plus stuff at Midnight last night so if all goes well According to plan and you know technical Issues aside we're recording this Thursday afternoon so you know it hasn't Happened yet when I'm recording this but It should be by the time you hear it all Of tuun plus stuff should be freely Readable by everybody so end of an era But also an open door I suppose what a Huge gift to our readers please read Them make me feel good anyways on the Show today deals of the week we have Stripe and fvo energy one from the world Of fintech one from the world of ripping

Heat out of the earth so a little bit of Diversity on our deals then we are going To dive into MaryAnn's recent Investigation into startups that have Been built to shut down other startups I Have many questions about this that's Going to be a fun one and then we're Going to wrap up with an update on AI Ownership and legality within a special Note on Microsoft's recent investment Into the French mistol AI but first Maryann stripe is back in the news and Once again it's not going public what's Going on now right right so Stripes Valuation has been on a roller coaster Ride over the past 3 years so I reported I think it was is it just yesterday that Its valuation is now back up 30% to be Exact to 65 billion as the company Announced a tender offer basically Meaning that it wanted to provide Liquidity to current former employees it In deals with investors and it also too Itself is buying some of these shares Back so the investors in stripe together Are purchasing over a billion dollars of Current and former stripe employee Shares so this is notable for a few Reasons one just last year the company Was valued at $50 billion when it raised 6.5 billion at the time it raised that Money for this very same purpose to Provide liquidity to employees and Shareholders this also means that it is

Most likely not going to go public this Year yeah I have a lot of thoughts about This okay so I pulled some data before We jumped on and I want to walk people Through how we got to today because you Just did a great job encapsulating the Latest stuff but go back to 2020 series G from stri was worth about 600y at About a $36 billion valuation then 2021 Comes as we all know things went crazy Especially fintech the series H was also $600 million moving the company up to a $95 billion valuation not a triple but You know not a double either a very Impressive fundra and it made it I think Probably the largest or one of the Largest well highly valued private Companies that particular rise I mean Also one of the largest in Revenue terms So I think you're right both ways but Yes in valuation data it stood out I Think maybe Space X is above it this is Roughly where Uber got to pre IPO it's Kind of where you see private companies Top out I feel like see if you were the Hyy you know go public the company Didn't and then we had MaryAnn's listed Series I from 2023 that was the $6.5 Billion tender offer I'm sorry liquidity And tax event that was a 50 billion Valuation and then now greater than 1 Billion tender offer $65 billion Valuation 65 billion Maran does that Feel high to you you know it's really

Hard to say Alex I mean our own Rebecca Reported earlier this year that based on Secondary trading activity the company Was valued more like around $ 53 billion So I I did feel a little bit High based On that what's interesting about stripe Is it I mean it's it's obviously huge They have really big customers and They've named some of them including Microsoft Uber Best Buy but at the same Time and this is a little gossip we Heard from upfront there's a lot of Complaints about the company apparently A lot of chatter that people complain About things like it's really hard to Disengage fees are very cannot say the Word onerous onerous there's a lack of Transparency into fees so I I feel like There is some frustration with stripe And there are competitors out there We've covered a few of them including Phix for example so anyway but it's Still forging on people still really Care about it and I think we all still Can't wait to see if and when it goes Public yeah Dan primac over at axios Who's actually been on this show way Back in the day he wrote about it today And he said or I guess it was this week I forget if it was Thursday or Friday That this newsletter came out but he Said you know what if strip just doesn't Go out what if they just don't go public Mostly you have to if you raise external

Capital it's it's the game right Maran You raise money grow fast and then exit Either via an IPO or Anis whatever but Stripe you know it's so big and so Valuable and so able to kind of like Control its own financial destiny as We're seeing to these last two Transactions that maybe it doesn't and Just pays dividends I guess it's just to Not go out and have a traditional Liquidity event means that it either has To repurchase all of its investor stock Which they won't want to give up for Less than a fat premium or it has to pay Dividends which means it has to be cash Flow positive at an absolutely massive Basis but Venture back priver companies Don't do those two things and so I I'm Perplexed by this and I'm disappointed That everyone is saying that this new Offer this new tender offer is going to Delay the IPO again I mean what are they Waiting for you know Alex it's a good Question I would be really surprised if They don't eventually go public I think Even just for public perception sake I Don't know maybe they're waiting for the Market to shift a bit I can't really say I would be really surprised if it Doesn't happen at least sometime in the Next year year and a half or two that's A 12 18 or 24 months it may happen some Point in time in the future no but I I Only beef because I think you're being

Reasonable in your point there I think It could be several years if they decide To go out which is just Bonkers when did Going public become the thing that Everyone doesn't want to do it was the Moment of like proof of maturity and Success and we built something big and Now we're going to be more public and You know I I just I find it so strange That we're that we're seeing this Zer Philosophy persist into a more Traditional economic environment and it Feels like a a a disjointed approach to The modern Market because this is not 2021 anymore and you can't keep Pretending that there's always going to Be unlimited capital for private Companies it seems to me to be Unnecessarily risky and also there's no Advantage to it I think it's interesting Also that I mean plaid is on its way to Going public and you know th those two Have become increasingly competitive as Well right kind of getting into each Other's areas more and more so you Almost wonder if they're like kind of Playing a waiting game to see who goes Public first to see how the other does I Mean not that of course their actions Are not that dependent on what their Competitors are doing necessarily but I Mean they're both on the path to going Public their markets or what they do Overlaps we've got Clara in the wings

Also probably going public soon not Necessarily in the same space but Fintech so I don't know I feel like We're just like sitting here this is me And Alex on the edge of a clip biting Our nails just waiting waiting to see What happens with all these fexs and Whether or not they'll go public and When okay so you brought up some great Stuff there that I have to touch on so First of all if we do see plaid go out Before stripe I'm going to buy Zack Parrot like a coffee because that would Be hilarious to me it could happen oh it Could easily happen but I think it' be More an indictment of stripe than an Endorsement of plaid which is not to Take away from pla's success I mean to Be clear they've done quite well but I Mean Lord above to me stripe teams Mismanaged at this point versus being You know like Savvy in its approach to To not going public Clara though kind of A wild card have you read their latest Numbers they just dropped their 2023 Annual report yeah they were pretty good Still yeah you know think I mean clar is Doing fine improving profitability Growing faster than its core Market you Know using AI in a lot of neat ways I Guess what that what this says to me is There's a lot of Health it appears in The fintech market and sure valuations Aren't where they used to be but that

Doesn't mean these aren't great Companies like no one no one thinks Stripe is hiding a bunch of dead rats in Its you know income statement I don't Think at least yeah at all maybe maybe Pla will be the first one bold enough to Actually go out and do this but I I I Hope they do all right anyways let's Move on and go from the world of high Technology and finance straight into the Batts of the Earth where we hunt out Heat because Maryann if you want to do Geothermal energy you have to dig and That brings us to fero energy about Which I am fervently energetic because It just raised more than $200 million to Commercialize and expand on geothermal Energy and MaryAnn I have to say turns Out they're doing some work down I Believe in Texas yeah they're based in Houston so this was really interesting To me I will not pretend that I really Get the technology itself because it's Very complex although Tim the reporter Who covered it did a great job of kind Of breaking it down but it was Fascinating for a few reasons just the Technology itself what it can do they Use directional drilling techniques that Were pioneered by the oil and gas Industry to extend Wells that they make Quote far beyond their surface Footprints $221 million is huge it's a Lot of money especially now it's based

In Houston which I also find interesting And that's because a lot of the Techniques they're using a lot of the Talent they're using is out of the oil And gas industry which is predominantly In the Houston area now I lived in Houston for 14 years the city Has kind of a bad rep I think it's Actually much more cool much more Diverse than one would expect Restaurants are amazing but anyway it's Kind of neat to see a company out of Houston raising this kind of money it Makes sense when you understand what They're doing and how they're doing it And another thing that I found Interesting early Angel Investors Include Jeff Bezos Richard Branson Bill Gates and Moshi son that's kind of a High-profile list of early angels Absolutely and what do Jeffy Richie Billy and Masa have in common well two Things one lots of money and also a General bias towards things that might Make Humanity slightly better off the Gates Foundation is the kind of er Example of that I think right now Amongst Tech philanthropy but if we can Get geothermal energy to work at scale It has a couple of major advantages Maran you touched on the location of it And the talent we already have a lot of People that can do horizontal drilling From centralized Wells thanks to the

Fracking industry and we also know that The planet's very hot and so if you can Get down there you can create a Temperature differential that will yield Steam which is what basically everything Does in the world of power generation to Spin turbines and then create Electricity Hydro electric is an Exception to that but that's slightly Different so I asked Tim how this works Because much like yourself Mary and I'm Not a scientist and it turns out that it Gets really hot much closer to the Surface than I thought and all you need To make Steam is 100° C and so some of These bows are G up to like 200 so Plenty of energy down there that you can Use to essentially create steam run These turbin I love this I don't know Exactly how it works that part's lost on Me but what this yields is something That can do baseload power and if you're Asking yourself Alex what's Bas load Power that's what I asked Tim and Tim Said it means that it is a constant Source of energy wind power solar power Both awesome but episodic when you have Wind or when you have Sun so you don't Need batteries to make thermal energy Work which means that it's just more Consistent and therefore cheaper Probably to operate and we're just Taking some of the Earth's heat no like A little mosquito sucking out the energy

And I think this is just super duper Cool it's fascinating it's really Fascinating especially to me because You're taking these you know fracking is Kind of a controversial practice you're Taking these techniques and actually Turning it into something that can be Very very positive right for the Earth The environment I love that and as the Oil and gas industry sort of shifts and You know giving workers another place They can go there's a lot of I mean There's just so many amazing cool things About this Maran why why is fracking Controversial oh I don't think we have Time to get into that right now but we Can list a couple of things that happens For example waves of microquakes waves Right like it can lead to lots more Localized seismic activity for example So fracking is not a solution to all of Our problems but in this case it is the Application of an oil and gas technique To something that is much better I don't Think we're ever going to have a Technology power solution that is Perfect but I do think that this is one That does have a lot of potential that Is quite exciting and it does also give Me a chance to bring up my new pet topic Which is a video game named Dyson Sphere Program I love kind of like City Management Factory automation games Because they tickle my brain and I find

It really fun to kind of think about This sort of company after having my Head stuck in that world because it's All about power generation and resource Management and all that stuff and There's also geothermal power in that World and so when I saw this come up I'm Like we have to bring up fero because I Want to say the words dys for program on The podcast at least twice and now I've Done it so now I make you Mo you did it Yay all right when we come back from a Very short break we're going to talk About how VCS are investing and taking Apart their own Investments it'll be a Lot of fun we're right back after This so this week I wrote about this Phenomenon that seems to be happening in The startup world we had two companies This week that raised in the space I Have to share the backstory about this Really quickly okay so about a month ago I was like you know I've noticed there's More startups that have been created to Help other startups shut down let me Reach out to them I'd like to write a Feature on this topic coincidentally Both those startups were like oh glad You touch base we just raised some money So I was like perfect timing so I Decided to to write this feature and the Two startups that raise money in this Space are sun set and simple closure Okay so Sunset raised $1.45 million in

Seed funding mostly from Angel Investors I'll get into that more later simple Closure raised another 4 million this Was less than 6 months after it raised 1 And A5 million in precede money which I Did Cover back in the day which was only Like six months ago and then also Carta Announced a similar offering in February Called CA conclusion so to summarize Basically what they're what they're all Trying to do is help these startups Which by the way the statistics show That about 90% of startups do end up Failing so right that's a huge total Addressable market right mean you know You've got a lot of potential customers Out there and what they're doing is Trying to make it easier faster just More streamlined cheaper supposedly for These companies to wind down operations And that includes things like helping Them dispose of their assets their IP Tax questions all of it so I really like This but I want to start with the names So Sunset that's what you do when you Kill off a product it gets sunsetted Simple closure though sounds more like a Therapy technique for people who just Got dumped but okay I'll allow it and Then Carta conclusions that just sounds Like a poorly named like data blog like Here are CA conclusions versus Carter Taking you to the point of conclusion I I euphemistic names dby bonkers but I

Guess these are all relatively twe and Therefore acceptable by the the Marketplace first question Maran 1.45 Million for Sunset not a lot of money is This more of a Services business than a Software business well that's a good Question I I feel like it's a little bit Of both it's not a ton of money but I Think they're just they're trying to be Careful that's a good point that you Raised because one of the co-founders That I talked to Brendan Mahoney told me That after talking to a lot of these Startups part of their their issue the Reason why they were winding down is That even though they had good Businesses they had decent ARR they had Raised venture capital and even though They were doing well they weren't Building what you would call you know a Venture scale business and so they were Like okay we're just going to cut our Losses and and move on so why does that Happen if you're listening to this and You are less deep in the world of Venture let me try to help here a little Bit venture capital invests in a company Comes with expectations you're Essentially on a timer or a treadmill if You will VCS invest Capital ahead of Your ability to generate revenue and Gross profit to fund your operations so You can hire more build more invest more In sales and grow more quickly the

Trade-off is you take on Capital you're Expected to grow like mad and a VC will Evaluate business that is at $5 million In annual recurring revenue and that's Growing at 1% per year at 0 the same V C May value a company at 5 million ARR Growing at 100% each year at a gajillion Dollars because growth is what startups Do so if you end up flatlining at a Single-digit ARR number you can Effectively lose all your Venture Momentum and then you have a cost bases That you can't support and then you Essentially have to decide what to do With it because you're not going to Raise more money for a non-growth Business so revenue is an important Thing to keep track of but for startups Growth really is the name of the game And I'm not shocked that we're seeing Maran companies with ARR hit a wall Because right now it's harder to raise Money it's harder to raise money and so That's what these co-founders realized And they said you know what we don't we Don't want to be caught in that we don't Want to raise a lot of capital and then Ourselves be in the same boat as many of Our customers so they chose to go Through this this non-traditional way of Fundraising most of their investment Dollars came from Angel Investors Including hustle funds Eric Bond weekend Funds Ryan Hoover layoffs.fyi Creator

Roger Lee who is also a Founder himself And so another interesting thing about This is they're offering their investors An incentive this is something I wanted To delve into but kind of ran out of Time and made revisit but basically They're saying hey if you refer as Customers your stake goes up now Maran I Got to say watching the guy who does the Layoff website invest in the company That helps other companies die feels a Little bit like the newspaper reporter In charge of local obituaries putting Capital into the funeral parlor but we Will have a chance to talk to him about This very soon yeah he I'll be Interviewing him next week for an equity Episode that will Air a week from this Saturday so definitely keep your ears And eyes open for that yes and if you Don't know what we're talking about just Go to layoffs.fyi it's a fantastic Website I've used their data time and Time again since it launched to help Understand what's going on out there in The world of tech layoffs also a simple Closure side Infinity Ventures LED their Rays which also included quote strong Participation from group Fox Capital Other existing backers they claim that They've seen a ton of growth that They've crossed seven figures and Annualized revenue already yeah okay so Services or software is an important

Question to ask because in the world of High growth startups if you're doing Services you'll never have great gross Margins and you only scale with Headcount which is inefficient so Everyone wants to build software very High gross margins easy to scale Etc These businesses though are a little bit More Hands-On it feels Maran CU When I Read your story we're talking to about IP we're talking about incorporation a Lot of things that could have edge cases Nuance to them legal ramifications and So it probably is not that easy so the Annualized number versus an annual Recurring Revenue figure makes a lot of Sense to me and I'm not shocked that They're seeing that much demand I just Wonder how hard is it to go from single- Digigit millions in annualized revenue For these companies to double digit Millions annual revenue one other thing I do want to point out while this is Kind of new in the startup World in Terms of companies doing this it's not New at all I mean obviously businesses Have been shutting down for years and Years I did talk to Marty pinchon from Sherwood Partners who's been doing this For like 25 years since the dot bust uh So I just wanted to point that out so You know it even though startups are Kind of now really getting into it there Have been other institutions doing it

For some time now but I I I'm curious to See how this plays out especially as Markets change I don't know it's kind of Fascinating to me I'm going to Definitely be paying atten men yeah I Remember I I have this like memory from The back of my head I'm on Cal Train in The Bay Area I'm probably Like 17 18 and I'm reading red herring In print yes yes and I remember reading About a company that did this and they Were talking about what do you do with 500 office chairs and printers and stuff Clearly a a different era of the tech You know industry but it just goes to Show to your point that shutting down Companies that have a non-traditional Asset base IP some Hardware Etc is is a Challenge and one that is unique it is a Little sad to see a startup cluster Emerge around helping startups die but It's better to have tools and services To do this than to not because then it's Just a mess so yeah I I think I'd like To end this on a quote from Infinity Ventures co-founder Jeremy joner who Firm LED that financing into simple Closure he said we are seeing a Meaningful increase in startups facing Challenges historically these startups Raised at robust valuations and have not Grown into the metrics necessary to Raise an up round as such they are Facing the question of raising at a

Meaningful down round selling the Company and or potentially shutting down The business therefore he said he thinks The addressable opportunity for his Investment of course is sizable and Increasing every day wow so I don't know If that's good or bad but yes definitely Truth to that I think I have many more analogies but I'm not Sure which ones would get us in trouble So I'm going to go ahead and not make Any more to avoid that and instead move Us on to AI the legality thereof and This recent Microsoft investment into Mistol AI maryan should I give people an Overview or just Dive Right In maybe a Very quick one Alex okay so open AI Comes out and goes woohoo look at this Look at what we've built everyone goes Oh we need to catch up in the world Of AI we can't have all the foundation Model companies be American enter France And mistol AI which quickly raised a lot Of money and has put together some very Impressive large language models that I Keep seeing people talk about on Twitter And apparently are seeing wide adoption Amongst certain startups so mraw is kind Of like the European Union's shot at Having a leading company in the current Moment of AI now will it succeed I don't Know certainly has raised less Capital Than certain companies your anthropics Your open AI but it does have a good

Foothold and then Microsoft decided to Put 15 million EUR into the business but Maryanne Microsoft owns 49% of open ai's Commercial division which led to you Asking a question for us in our prep Call yeah I was kind of confused I was Like wait a minute if Microsoft is such A big shareholder in open AI is this not A conflict of interests like I mean is It because it's a different continent That it feels like it's not or what cuz I don't know it just it feels a little a Little weird to me yes it does seem a Little weird But is it actually a point of conflict Or merely a conflict in point and I Think the issue here is Microsoft wants To spread its bets around just because That's not a bad way to hedge for Example what if open AI suddenly slows Down and M makes better programs well Then it has a small piece of it but I Don't think Microsoft really expects Open AI to not be one of the leading Companies in the foundation model Business in the next 10 years so why This deal and why does open AI probably Not care that they've done this I think It's to cover their butt legally we have Seen governments around the world start To say you know this Microsoft open AI Deal seems a little odd perhaps too cute By half if you want to use the English Idiom and by that I mean Microsoft has

Managed to find a way to get a lot of Visibility and ownership of open ai's Work but not bring it into its actual Oaces and therefore avoid antitrust Scrutiny and so forth very interesting Theory I hadn't thought of I mean I'll Just say one more thing on this topic Because I know we need to move on to Other things related to open AI but I Had a little bit of a flashback to Sequoia backing out of its investment in Phix because it was a big investor in Stripe so I know Microsoft is not a Venture capital firm per se but anyway It's just really interesting to me how There are different ways of these sort Of things being handled depending on the Players and the industry the another Theory cuz now that you've raised that Up it's actually a very sing example the Thing that I would throw in is what's The chance that open AI buys mistol yeah Microsoft would then own both sides of That particular coin so heads or tails They win right I don't know I don't like That Microsoft is Savvy and they have Been moving really fast to get AI Integrated into their products I just Saw them release a new co-pilot for Finance this week or something so They're they're busy with it but there Is some kind of clouds on Horizon if you Will and you may recall that the New York Times sued open AI essentially for

Ingesting its material as part of at Least through GPT 2's model creation Maran and there's been a little bit of Push back there yeah I mean open AI is Defending itself and they're saying that The Publications hacked into its product And basically repeated something like Thousands of times to try to get the Result it wanted to claim that open AI Was using its material like verbatim so There's a lot of back and forth I have Like mixed feelings about this because As a writer if open AI takes my articles And then is just spouting it off Verbatim I don't know how I feel about That and do they credit the Publications From which they get this material I Don't think so is that not plagiarism I Don't know there's a lot of blurriness Here Edge case though right like I don't Think that most of the time you type in You know tell me why sooya backed out of Phix and it's not going to say well you Know here's MaryAnn's story I'm not Going to credit her I do think that's possible but I think Open a guys made a reasonable case that That is sufficiently fringe as to be More of indicative of the data source Versus then the data's use that's might Been my read of it but I don't know I Spent a lot of time writing stuff and Caring about it and doing the work and It does seem odd to me that it can be

Taken ingested smoothi and then Reserved on the other end for profit Without my work being compensated Because if we hadn't done this yeah Exactly they wouldn't exist yeah that's I mean really that's what I mean I have Mixed feelings about it so they can Claim all these things about oh it's Public it's all this and it's all that But that doesn't make it right no also The the value exchange that we have in The world of search I know some people Are thinking well what about search yeah But spidering and linking is different Than ingesting wholesale and and Regurgitating In part or whole right and I think that The AI companies kind of agree with this Because they're signing deals with with Different companies like for example Reddits data is often used in certain Data sets that are fed into llms and They are making several hundred million Dollars a year now according to their IPO filing for that work you know I've Written thousands of things for Tech Runch and you know I don't own any of Them I guess I don't know the money Behind private Equity Funds that Invested into Apollo that own Yahoo that Own techwrench that own me own it but You know if I'm generating value outside The business I think the business should Get paid for it it feels weird to be

Saying that that's controversial because A lot of the folks who are saying that This stuff should be ingested for free Because it's important are also the ones Who are capitalist in their own right They're just in this case saying that It's more important for the tech to move Faster than for the capital to flow Where it should which I think is self- Serving I'm not shocked it's business But it does seems slightly gross to me But it does summing all that up it's Going to be fun to see where the courts Go on this yeah especially because it it Becomes really complicated because how I Mean I don't even see how they could if They wanted to compensate the companies Or Publications or what I mean you know That would become extremely complicated Probably slow them down greatly and I Just don't see how that could happen Realistically the American model in Technology and governance is to let Business run ahead and do lot of things And then we come with a dust pan and a Broom afterwards and try to tidy it up Crypto okay yes super valid although Also unpopular there amongst the same Venture Capital set but in this case we Have let open AI build a multi-billion Dollar a year business off the back of Stuff they didn't make and I think there Should be a way to get compensated for That because the companies that are

Backing them are famously litigious Right do you think Microsoft would give You the benefit of the doubt so you Could build Tech off of its data no no So I just like some consistency from The Tech players here you can't you can't be Worth $3 trillion and dash around money In tens of billions and then tell me When you use my that it's it's hard It's capitalism for me and not for thee Is how it feels which I just think is Ridiculous I'm a capitalist I made a Thing you're using it let's have the Value flow both ways I that would be the Right thing to do last thing Maran just On the startup front I will say that Mistol continues to win which is good For the EU which is good for the local Startup scenes in France and France does Seem to be I think right now the most Interesting startup Market in Europe Taking out Germany I think as as lead in That role very interesting yeah it Announced earlier this week it was Building new a new large language model That could really rival chat Gp4 yeah which is impressive because GPT 4 is kind of still I think State-ofthe-art although I would love to See GPT 5 you know sooner the better Here's a fun game will we get to AGI Before stripe goes public we may never Know CU we might die before both all Right uh that is our show for this fine

Friday Equity of course is back on Monday Wednesday and Friday of next week And we do have an interview coming out This weekend maryan tell us what's Coming up I talked to new bank CEO deid Valz the company just recently crossed I Think it was a $50 billion market cap And yeah we had an interesting Conversation about that and just lat am In general so definitely don't miss it He he's a great inter interview yeah he Really is and of course we have moved Our Wednesday show to more startup Focused topics it's a deep dive on Funding rounds and that sort of thing And so we've scooted our interviews into The weekend to ensure that we can stay As focused as we can on our core topics While bringing in other voices all right That's all the time we have for today we Are Equity pod over on X and threads we Are Tech runch pods on Tik Tok The Tech Runch podcast network has two sister Shows to this one chain reaction with Jackie melanic on all things crypto and Then found with Becca scoutek and Dominic madori Davis talking Founders But how they built what they did we'll See you all ear stage goodbye Bye Equity is hosted by myself Alex Wilhelm and Tech rench senior reporter Mary an aeto we are produced by Teresa Loans solo with editing by Kell Bryce Durban is our illustrator and a big

Thank you to the audience development Team and Henry pavet who manages Tech Rench audio products thank you so much For listening and we'll talk to you next Time

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