What Does Product-Market Fit Mean When Hype Tanks?

Hey everybody how y'all doing thank you For sticking around hi guys it's been Great to have you here and thanks so Much for joining us so for having me I'm Just going to repeat what Alex said for Starters which is that I would really Love to get your questions they really Want to see your questions on product Market fit we've got three amazing People here uh you've got access to some Incredible people here so you should Definitely use it anything that comes to Mind send it to me over slido I think You all know how to do it and I'll make Sure the questions get woven into our Conversation Um so let's just I'd love to just start Off if that's okay with just a couple of Little icebreakers to just ask each of You a question just going down the line If that's that's okay with you guys okay Let's let's start with Annie Actually Annie this is a tough one it's A tough one to start with I'm so nervous Yeah don't be nervous it's gonna be fine Um listen You are the chief product officer of Calendly not only it this is an Incredible company that's totally had You know just came out of the blue with This boom with scheduling which really Took off during covert I think Um you are its first Chief product Officer which to me says something about

The task of Building Product at the Company So really it was a one hit wonder Um and you guys are now tasked with Trying to figure out how to grow into Your three billion plus valuation Um after you raised all that money last Year so maybe we can just start with That you know how how is that how do you Face that challenge I feel like that is The ultimate product Market fit Challenge in a way uh great question to Kick us off so um let's see so Colony Really started off as a very horizontal Scheduling automation platform and Really started off trying to solve the Problem for my founder and CEO Tope who Is in sales and was having really a Frustrating time going back and forth Via email to get deals closed and so we Started off on this journey about seven Years ago building a very horizontal Scheduling automation platform and That's really you know and with virality Built into it so we had an incredible Acquisition channel that was you know Profitable and we could essentially Anytime anyone used the product they'd Invite another person into the product And it's sort of this beautiful Product-led growth machine And what happened through that journey Is what we started to see was we'd get Pulled into a product Market fit pull

Into certain icps or departments within Organization so anyone in an externally Facing role sales customer success Recruiting we started to see like really High engagement from those users and so What that told us was you know the first Chapter of colony was all horizontal and And we you know were able to capture a Lot of market share and build this Really uh you know viral profitable Business and now next for us is how do We now go deeper to serve the Departments that we have developed and Found incredible product Market will fit With so the journey we're on now we kind Of called chapter two is how do we now Go serve the recruiting teams or the Sales teams or the customer success Teams in a much deeper way than we could With just the horizontal platform and Then I think from there you go okay now That we've kind of nailed the end-to-end Scheduling Market both horizontally and Vertically how do we now LeapFrog into What what's beyond scheduling and so for Us we sort of think about the broader Media life cycles the next Horizon that We'll go after once we've sort of you Know completed the journey going deeper For the Departments that we serve today So I know I've written about some of the Vertical you guys are making an Acquisition and so on um do you think You're going to have to Rebrand though

Because I mean the name really sticks You to something you know your name is a Certain product in a way a calendar yeah It's a good question I think you're Going to be calling yourselves product Productively productively it's a good Question I think you know branding and And the name of the company is important But I think maybe more important is Being able to like really solve the team Based and the collaborative based Scheduling scenarios so that's more Where we're focused right now but it's a Good point I mean calendly is pretty Synonymous now with scheduling time with Someone right send me your account only Link so that's great from a brand Perspective and gives us sort of the Authority to go build new products on Top of that brand but we are not Currently talking about a Rebrand or or A rename okay But that sounds interesting you're not Talking about it now but listen that's a Conversation for the other states Perfect we do the big business Conversation Um we're gonna stick with product Market A bit here so I won't I won't dig it too Deep on that AppLock Um now you are very interesting because You have uh kind of two sides to your Background you were a Founder you sold Your company to square congratulations

Um now called block Um then now you're you're at angelist You've got like a very very different Perspective on product Market fit I Would think between being a founder and Now doing what you're doing at Angelus How how would you say your previous life Given that Angelus is you know your Customer base is startups how is that Informing what you're doing I mean do You constantly sit if I were one of my Customers what do I need or how how is That playing out for you Yeah um so Angelus ethos has always Built four Founders by Founders and so Everything we do puts Founders at on the Pedestal and so that actually bleeds Into how we build product Um and the platform itself serves GPS Who start funds LPS people who invest in Funds and Founders but when we think About products we're building for GPS And LPS it's always with the founder in Mind and so a lot of my experience of Being a Founder helps because I can Pretty quickly assess hey if we're going To make this move or if we're going to Offer this to GPS and LPS does this put The founder in a better position or Worse position and you know a good Example actually is a product we just Launched a few months ago our UVS and it Very clearly put more power in in the Hands of the founder and less in the

Hands of GPS and LPS and again it's Always really putting founder on the Pedestal and asking is this what's great For them and that's actually the case For any platform where there is an Ecosystem you always have to make a Choice on who you're going to prioritize First because there will always be a Trade-off decision that you need to make So that's actually how it's helped it's Just because I've been a Founder I've Been through the fundraising cycle Acquisition cycle product Market fit Cycle I'm able to empathize and Understand all aspects of it and then Lead Angelus into building into building For the ecosystem itself okay cool okay Polly your question Um is so what's interesting about you is That you came from a pretty Enterprise Background you spent years at Google but Most recently at Google Cloud Which is you know really the the most Businessy end of what Google does Obviously now you're at Reddit which is Really the other end of it all you're Like fully into the consumer game now How is that has that felt like a Complete you know just schizophrenia or Something of trying to think of product In in such a different environment how How are you doing it and why like you Know why did you move into something That's so deeply different from what you

Knew yeah so first of all I had an Opportunity to work on a bunch of Different things that Google spent over A decade there yeah so it's a lot of fun Well before Google cloud ever got Started as well but uh really For Me Reddit is all about communities and as a Redditor long-time editor myself right It was just an incredible opportunity I Couldn't pass up to work with Steve and Team to to create this platform and Build on this platform that brings Community and belonging to people Everywhere in the world and it's one of Those unique opportunities where Reddit's that it's large 500 million users visit Reddit monthly Yeah but the opportunity is to be uh Serving many many billions of users Around the world because Um every single person needs to belong To a community and wants to belong to Communities and we offer that uniquely To them do you feel like the fact that You were doing Enterprise product most Recently and now you're in this very Very consumer product do you think that That was a sort of conscious Choice by Reddit because they have so much of a Harder kind of They have a real mandate to make money Right like they've really spent so much Time building Community Um and not really thinking so much for

For the you know first chunk of its life Really about itself as a business as a Revenue generating business and yet now That is very much a part of what they're Doing yeah would you say that that's Look I think maybe one of the reasons Why you joined or I think one of the big Reasons Um Why you know You know I joined Reddit was because It's this opportunity to create that Community platform and take it to Everyone yes we need to create a Sustainable business as well but our Mission comes first which is community Belonging and empowerment for everyone In the world so that's the primary focus And the good news with Reddit is we're Now in a place where we can sustainably Fund uh fund our own growth so excellent So we're in a good place okay hold on Backstage this IPad does not work I don't know if Anyone's gonna hear me but I won't be Able to take questions from the audience Anybody backstage Let's see if they come out Uh anybody backstage the iPad isn't Working Okay cool all right let's see what Happens with that okay in the meantime I Want to ask you some questions Um so first one is

What do you believe is the when you're a Founder and you're Building Product Market fit what is and I would like to Go down the line on this one if that's Okay either a big do or a big don't what Is the biggest mistake you can make or The best thing you can do you can choose To answer it however you want and you Can respond to each other if you want uh Let's who should we start with anyone Want to go first I can start yeah No One's Gonna Get out Of it I'll start oh sorry yeah okay First I think just definition of product Market fit a million definitions out There I think at the highest level it's You've built a product that a market Wants right there are people that want Your product I think the reality is it's much more Nuanced than that and there's really Kind of three pieces of product Market Fit one is kind of acquisition have you Actually built an acquisition Channel That's sustainable and that's profitable Uh that you can sort of rely on Month-over-month growth right if you get A big PR announcement you get a bunch of Users in top of funnel and that dries up You don't have a sustainable model for Getting users into the platform and Doing so in a profitable way so you have To think about acquisition then on the Retention side of UK you got all these

Users in your product how do you know That they're a sizable number of them or Enough percentage of them are sticking Around long enough and so that we talk About like the retention curves start to Flatten as when you sort of know that You know you've reached some level of Sustainable percentage of users using Your product for a long period of time And then the last piece is like business Model right are these people actually Willing to pay for your product or have You figured out how to monetize them so I sort of start there because I would Say the dues is like you kind of have to Think about all three like you can build An amazing product that people love and They want to use but if you don't know How to reach people and you haven't Built a sustainable acquisition model or You don't have monetize them then you Know there's sort of no business there That's really for B2B I mean I would say For Consumer do you think that the Sustainable part is a priority in the Same way absolutely I mean yeah like That's probably the I'll just build on what and he said Absolutely it's it's important to have That sustainable cycle but it comes from Building a product that a large number Of users love I think you know as a Founder as you think about building Products the first thing you think about

Is hey do I love this product and does It solve a problem for me But then you have to ask yourself the Question and that's that's a great Starting point but ask yourself the Question does this solve a problem for a Large number of users because if it Doesn't solve a problem for a large Number of users you are always going to Be struggling to figure out how to Acquire those customers because there Isn't that natural pull Right so that's piece number one and Then just to add add to what and he was Talking about I really think having a differentiated Solution makes a big difference Especially you know when there's hype Cycles there was a time uh you know last Year and even now where everyone talks About community And everyone tries to latch on to that Buzzword for Reddit we live Community we Breathe community and we are all about Community right and so that makes a huge Difference so find out like what is that Thing that you are uniquely about and That you're all in on as opposed to like You know also being about machine Learning or Ai and like whatever else is Like popular uh in that particular day Do you think that like if you're Building community and that's really Your first thing and then suddenly

You're like oh here I'm now going to be Offering you products it's sometimes can Feel like a betrayal in a way yeah how Do you Broach that yeah so as we think About it the good news is that we are in An extraordinarily large unbounded Market literally every single person on The planet needs this so we're fortunate In that way to focus on a mission that's Truly for every single person yeah now Sometimes you don't have that luxury and If you don't have that luxury and you're Focused on something a little bit Narrower right then it's important to Actually make sure that you really build For your customers in a deep way I'd Love to hear from a vlog yeah Yeah I would say in the due category Um you want to think about product Market fit as multiple iterations Especially in the early stages when You're building something you don't Naturally know it's going to work for a Large audience right a lot of this Happens organically and so very early on What you're really just looking for is Is there a pulse is like in what you're Building are people pulling it out of You because most of the time you're just Fighting apathy right people don't have The time or day to listen to you to use Your product they have their own things Going on in life so the problem you're Solving has to resonate so deeply that

Customers are banging down the door Trying to get in there was you know Recently with Angelus we launched a Product that and we knew it had product Market fit when people were literally Messaging friends of mine on LinkedIn Asking to get in because we had a wait List and we did no marketing on it no Paid nothing which Oh that was rolling funds it was like From all angles everyone was trying to Get in just to use that product nor ev's Had similar characteristics and that Typically is the Um sign that you have something and then From there what happens is you discover More things you move into adjacencies You get into larger markets uh Facebook Famously was only scoped to colleges and Just one college to begin with and then Went from college to college to college Now sometimes you know that the product Will be useful to a larger market which Is great but sometimes you just don't Know it actually is more art than Science very early on and so going back To the do I think you want to keep the Team size small focus on iterations and Just keep going until it has a pulse and I you know I made this mistake myself as A Founder where I built a product it was Somewhat growing and then I added paid Ads on top of it because in my mind I'm Like great it's got to grow month over

Month growth is all that matters and Yeah we grew month over month until we Hit some point where it was like well The retention isn't where it needs to be Um and what happens if you get too Focused and doing that early you miss The art the early art of creating a Product that the world just needs so Very early on my my main advice always Is keep the team size small focus on the Iterations and look for that organic Pull that's coming from the uh from Customers and you'll know it like when Customers need your product they will Literally bang down the door and you all Know it too imagine the first time you Used Uber Airbnb Google right you can't Live without those products that's the Bar for product Market fit that's a Great answer Um okay I'm going to pull one of these Questions now from the slido which is Very relevant to what you've just said So um it's from someone called roshka Most of these are Anonymous but whoever Rashka's thank you for the question Um any advice on timings Meaning what should be the longest Period for defining product Market fit So if that does that question make sense To you I think it's a good one it's um Basically what you've just described but Let's say how long do you think is a Good enough time to do that before you

Say look we have to just stop iterating And just do something here yeah that's a Tough one Um it's tough I I my answer is going to be a Non-answer in that if you as the founder If you don't have that next idea or Spark of an idea that you want to go Chase Um and test then you know it like you Should just call it but if you do and There's some other Insight that you have Then you should absolutely go pursue it But you have to be incredibly honest Because sometimes you just get stuck in Um in confirmation bias it's like no There's got to be something here you Keep chasing but I'm describing what I Did early on that was my first company I Just kept chasing and chasing and Chasing and three years into it I was Like okay this is not this is not Working Um and so I would say you wanna you Actually want to be honest with yourself And see do you actually have another Idea that's worth testing and if not Call it another thing I've seen Founders Do is just time box it so every quarter Is an experiment and then that way it's Ultra methodical so every quarter They'll give themselves that amount of Time ship it test it with customers if It's not working the next one the next

One the next one Um I don't know if that advice works all The time though because sometimes the Thing you're building just requires more Time Um yeah and so it's it's not it's not a You know perfect advice for everyone Yeah that must work when you have enough Staff that you can do that while also Having people building Kind of more sustainable stuff that Might not last past a quarter yeah I Yeah I have a slightly I don't know if It's controversial view but I think Um I think Founders should keep the team Sizes incredibly small early on Um mainly because the rate of iteration When you add it increase the team size Slows down so my my view is whenever you Add people any grown group of humans Gets slower as it scales and if you're Trying to iterate with a larger group You will just be slower and so instead You actually want to find people that Have multiple skills in one so someone That can code and write copy or someone That can code and design and so you can Go through multiple iterations pretty Quickly okay so I'm going to ask another Question which I think is perfect for Annie Um if that's okay so if product Market Fit is too good don't you become the Perfect Sitting Duck for bigger

Companies to attack how do you avoid That and their event their thing is how To avoid what happened to diapers.com Because that's what Amazon did and That's how they ended up killing them This came up this morning on stage with Mark Laurie and that's actually perfect For you guys because I mean there's Something you know I'm pretty sure right After I wrote about how calendly raised All that money Google came out with a Calendaring product on Google Calendar And I mean you know this is like really Tough tough gig yeah how do you avoid That I mean you guys had such good Product Market fit you did get attacked Yeah yeah I think well I think every Company product Market fit is not static Right product Market fit is something You have to consistently be Um nurturing right and so every company Hits a point where they hit what's Called Product Market fit saturation Right like you've either already Acquired some high percentage of the Number of users in the market you're Going after such that it's irrelevant to Getting that last 10 or your product has Been optimized to a point there's no More juice you can squeeze out of the Product or you have someone come Disremediate you and there's a Competitive change or something happens With technology so our job as product

Leaders is is to really stay ahead of That and say it's gonna happen it Happens to every company and so you kind Of have to consistently be thinking Several years ahead to say okay are we Gonna go there's really three places to Go right I can either take this product And adapt it to New users in my existing Market new geographies new segments I Can go build a new product within my Existing Market to better serve Different users that I don't serve well Today or I can move to a completely Different market and build a new product Right those are my three options and I Think most important in all of that is Where are my points of differentiation That give me you know the strength to Say I can actually succeed in whatever I'm going to go do is it you know my Distribution channel is it technology I Have common components that I could use You know and that's your way to stay Ahead as you say I actually have an Advantage to go build a new product in a New category ahead of someone else Because I I have something within you Know that I have some shared Capabilities that I can use that will Allow me to be successful so I think the Job of Founders even early on is to know That it's going to happen and so you're Just consistently thinking about okay Now I'm going to go adjacent here I'm

Going to go up here I'm going to go over Here and what are the capabilities I'm Building along the way that will allow Me to you know LeapFrog whatever Situation I find myself in because You're gonna find yourself in that Situation so basically a good product or A good founder a good product person or Founder founder or person will be Constantly thinking in that way Um that you're even when you're in the Real in the heart and the of of having All your audience you're already Thinking like in chess what's going to Be my next second third fourth fifth Sixth by the time you actually have to By the time that it comes that you've Hit the wall it's usually too late or at Least you're going to take you another Two years to really get the next product To Market yeah I'm product Market fit uh And scale it Just build on what Annie's talking about Ultimately product Market fit as it's Defined by you early on is likely Product Market fit for a feature and yes The feature can get attacked by a Competitor or by a larger company But if you truly understand what the Need of that customer is right and if Your customers are then you can keep Building and yes they can keep copying You but you have to like Define the Space and so just you know talking about

Reddit we are talking about communities And blogging it's not one feature it's a Set of things so yes other people can Build one of those things but usually You have to create that solution that Works for for your customers so avoc I'm Going to ask you a question it's not on This list Um I'll go back to list in a second but So funny thing about product Market fit That I can see is that it was you know In a certain time it was in that same Category as Tam total addressable Market Is the kind of thing that um Founders Were very much into pitching to Investors Um and investors needed to see the Answers to those to evaluate the Investment given that we're in such a Tighter market now where investment is Not as quick to come by as it was before And I would say that investors very much Have the upper hand now in those Negotiations of evaluation and all kinds Of other things Where is that parameter coming in now Would you say from where you're sitting Because you're you're sitting in between In that hole ecosystem Um where where is pmf standing now um For the do they ever call it pmf Um I don't think so I like Um Yeah so I would say for

You know basically I think the the Question summarizes as how does a new Capital cycle Um fit in in terms of do founders in Your product Market fit now to get Funded or not right and and so the way You actually want to think about Fundraising is there's fundraising Before product Market fit and then There's fundraising after product Market Fit and how companies get funded pre and Post are actually very different so Pre-product Market fit it's typically More of the belief in the vision right Like how large could this be Um could would customers really want This product that you're building and You're typically looking at pre-seed Seed stage that's typically the bet that Pre-seed and Seed investors make then as You get into series a b onwards Um Things become a little bit more Systematized and that's when you get Into Um more around how does it grow what's The growth rate look like what are the Modes look like what if this gets Attacked so they're actually different Ways of thinking about it I would say That the preceded Seed Market has gotten Tighter but hasn't actually change at The same rate as the later stage market Like series BNC it hasn't trickled down So badly yet it hasn't and actually

What's happening is Um some of the layer stage investors That we're playing there actually went Earlier so there's still a plethora of Capital there but it has slowed down Like deal velocity has slowed down for Sure but I would say the expectations of Product Market fit haven't changed and Sure in the prior Capital cycle by prior I'm referring to the Massive uh sort of Boom 20 late 2020 2021 where more things got funded than It really should have and uh you know I Think people believe something at Product Market fit when it really didn't And so a lot of that has receded but it Hasn't gotten to the point where Companies are not getting funded it's Another way to frame it is if you have Product Market fit you will absolutely Get funded if you have a great idea or Hypothesis around product Market fit That's in large markets you'll Absolutely get funded but everything Else on the margins that were copycats Or that were you know quick follows all Of that is less likelier to get funded At least that's what we're seeing in our Data that's interesting so you have you Would say that investors have gotten They're scrutinize it a lot more now the Whole product Market yeah concept yeah I Think diligence Um due diligence is longer now so what

Was happening if you just think about The capital cycles and this Capital Cycle by the way is just macro cycles That play out every you know every few Years when you have a lot of capital That comes in it typically goes into Venture funds and when we you have a lot Of venture funds are looking at the same Deal you have competitive dynamics that Kick in and then Founders will start Saying things like hey I need to you Know I've got a term sheet I've got to Sign this term sheet by tomorrow are you In or not and then that's when diligence Goes out the window it's like well This sounds interesting we don't have Time to do the full diligence we may as Well just give the term sheet that has Gone right now there's not as as many of Those deals happening and so people have More time to diligence product Market Fit cool okay okay Polly I'm going to Ask you a question which is actually a Very businessy question but it's very Relevant to the product Market fit Question that we're here talking about Um it's Anonymous but it's a really Interesting one it's why has Reddit kept Its ux more or less the same over the Past decade is it planning on a visual Overhaul and that's a great one so You're a really interesting product guy Because you're there you're there Building all this interesting cool stuff

Around nfts and Um you know other kinds of monetization And and really kind of breaking into New Frontiers of where Reddick grows a Product and yet it's actual product the Mainstay of the whole thing is largely Remained exactly the same So what about that aspect of the product And and where are you going on that and Are you going to update that do you Think you should never ever update it Because it's done so well if it ain't Broke and all that stuff yeah yeah this Is a great question yeah whoever's asked It thank you this is the question that We think about all the time Yeah it must be a big one for you guys The thing that we've done uh at Reddit Is a really good job of evolving what Our user experience looks like but do it In smaller increments because once you Have a large group of users using Something Um every change you make will actually Cost something to the users to adopt and So one of the things you want to be very Thoughtful about is you all are building Your own products is Looking at what you need to evolve and What you need to keep constant and if There are pieces of your of your Solution that are actually working don't Change it right just for the sake of Iteration or sake of evolution

But then look at places where you can Actually make your solution better give You one example right we were looking at Um How realtors show up on Reddit and It was just a username and we just had a Username listed in Gray text for the Longest time and one of the things we Did was over the last and this has Happened over the last year and a half Or so is we've introduced this uh this Concept of Avatar to Reddit where users Can go in they work in a studio and they Can customize their own avatar so they Show up how they want to and it Represents them it represents their Interests and it truly gives them the Flexibility to be who they want to be And it doesn't feel markedly different From what Reddit already is yeah it Doesn't feel difficult thing to think About with product Market fit what feels Like a complete Shift versus just an Expansion of what's already there Exactly and that evolves and you know we We suddenly saw like droves of users Starting to adopt this the solution and Now of course to your point we've Introduced collectible avatars that can Be created by redditors forward editors It's uh it's on the blockchain you can Mix and match you can transfer it to Other Realtors so it's really created This ecosystem you can take it off

Reddit if you want and and you'll see That users will adopt it in this Particular case you know we had over 3 Million relatives create crypto wallets In order to adopt this product right It's just shows you the kind of scale That's there in just a few months and This was We launched it over the summer and in Just a few months you have all these Users adopting it and so really think About think hard about where you want to Keep the product as it is and then Evolve it in places where you think you Can actually solve a problem or make it More additive okay cool Um this could be a question for any of You actually I think it's a it's an Important one I'm from Chris Knight Thanks Chris which is when you're Scaling a business for Global markets What advice would you provide in terms Of understanding and adjusting what you Offer as product Market fits so how much Is the regionality and localization Coming in for you guys do you feel like It's hard and efficient to have to do That for different regions or do you do You try to think about things always in That way of of scaling to different Markets Is it a bad fit if it's only for one Small region uh no I don't think so I Think it's a question of

Um okay if we're just talking about from A pure business scale perspective it's a Question of are there a small number of Users I'll pay a lot or are you trying To get a lot of people to pay a small Amount right that's really that that's a Deeper question to ask but you know I Was thinking about product Market fit by Region it's real for some companies um So Angelus we we play at the Intersection of Securities Law fund Structuring and then and operations and Software so it's a pretty pretty large Intersection there and it's very Dependent based on the region so uh Everything that we do and we build is With the U.S Securities Law in mind and Then as soon as you go to UK or you go To India all of a sudden you do have a Big build to take care of and then you Have to you have to basically assess how Large is the market and does it make Sense right Um for Reddit it's of course a different Set of things to think of about probably Not as much of a friction as you're Going Market into other markets uh Probably more cultural and language than Anything else I think it depends on the Business itself yeah language is a big Deal for us we do want it to be Available in every language Um and and then there's all the cultural Things right what for instance in India

People care a lot about cricket cricket Is almost like the national religion Right and the UK yeah and the UK that's Right that's right that's right and Australia and a few other countries Around the world maybe it's more Global Than you think yeah yeah it is it is Certainly Global there's actually a World Cup in cricket happening right now That I stay up really late for it's Happening in Australia so so yeah Certainly but then if you look at the United States and it's not even the United States right you have to think About it in like specific like cities And what do they care about and we care About like the 49ers here and in Seattle They care about the Seahawks and the NFL And so there are all those nuances that You have to actually think about so There's always going to be permutations That are localized yes absolutely yeah Okay Annie um this is something that Avlock touched on but I think it's a It's a good one and I want to ask you This one Um which comes from I think it was an Anonymous but the the Crux of it is when You're in the process of evolving Product Market fit and you are finding You know things are not growing or Catching on quite as well as you had Hoped when do you throw in the towel Yeah thank you Anonymous

Um thanks a lot You know I think we touched on this a Little bit earlier the like kind of pure Definition of when the retention curves Start and flatten out which essentially Says users who started on day one in a Cohort you look at them over the course Of 12 months what percentage of those Users are still using your product and You know hopefully that doesn't flatten Out to zero that flattens out at Something like 30 40 something like that And that's when you start to see okay so There's a there's a large enough Percentage of users who are still using My product over a certain time period Um and so I think you want to pay a lot Of attention to those that that data and In particular make sure that that data Is applicable to your product and and The market that you're going after so if This is something that's not used very Frequent frequently then how you're Measuring retention is going to look Very different than a daily active use Kind of product so I think you want to Really understand sort of the frequency Of use and the core actions that your Users are taking in your product to Define a metric that you can sort of say Here's how we know when we have success Our retention curves will look like X And so I think once you have that Parameter then you can sort of say okay

We actually know this is going to take Us a year because this is a product that You know people only use once a quarter And so we need the data to sort of Mature that long in order to feel you're Willing to wait longer for some things Than others I think it's really Understanding your users and the Frequency of their use and the core Actions to determine like when are we Going to decide this success or not and Have we you know have we gotten there is That what's the challenge of that like Though because I mean I can imagine There must be a lot of head butting Going on between Finance teams you know And product teams or the CEO that's Really wedded to something that really Just wants something to happen Um wants something to be a thing or your Investors or your board you know like Where do who gets the upper hand in These things it really depends right I Think it starts with that definition of What a success and and what's the time Period you talked about time boxing Right it's like if we don't reach this Metric by this time period then we're Going to move on and I think you have That alignment then you're just tracking Your metrics and you're reporting out on Them and then you sort of make a call I Think the challenge becomes you don't Have the metric it's very subjective

Well I think we should be doing that we Got to wait a little bit longer we Haven't seen you know X Y and Z happen And so I think if you can get alignment On the like core thing that's going to Define success or not and that will Change at every company there's not like A standard definition Um then you know that's at least one way To prevent the sort of opinions yeah and Do you think would you say that it's Best to kind of come up with that before You launch something everybody has the Same idea rather than like yes Retrofitting a metric after your uh Everybody sign this piece of paper this Commitment to this alignment I think That's very very important yeah okay Um so here's a good one which I I know That you touched on CopyCats in the we Don't invest in them we don't want to Investors don't want to see that right Now and we touched our copycats a little With you too and I said what happens When You're basically getting your product Made okay but let's turn that question Around the other way which is if you are Getting copied Those copycats are doing it how do you Double down and make sure that what You're doing like what what do you what Would be your advice for Making to fend those to fend those

Copycats off and to really come out as Individual in the original and you know The best I don't know maybe I'll ask you Polly Yeah not that you guys have that problem At Reddit because Reddit is just so Unique you're really lucky in that way You know Yeah so certainly the mission the Mission uh with Reddit has made it Unique and it's the community that makes It unique yeah no mistaking it everyone Just read it um unless you're fortunate Just kidding very different yeah Uh so in terms of like what you do if You're a founder and someone's trying to Copy your product I think the the key really is what's That differentiated and deeper Insight That you have about customers because It's easy to clone a user experience It's much harder to actually solve the Problem in a deep way and I think that's Where like you'll start seeing a Fundamental shift in how much you're Growing and whatever metric you're using Right you might be using like quarterly Growth Etc or you might be if you're in A consumer product like Reddit you're Looking at daily active users and yeah And you're you're looking at the number Of monetizable daily active users Etc Right so whatever metric you're using You will see those start to like shift

And then if you're switching over to any Side if you're in the Enterprise because It's kind of a little bit of time in the Enterprise you start seeing customers Like switch from the competitor to you And so one of the things that I used to Track all the time is switchers so it's People who've actually used a different Product who are switching to you and so You really want to like focus on what Are the set of things that you're Solving uniquely Honestly if every single thing has been Built by another competitor and they've Solved the problem too That means you are getting your lunch Eaten unless you unless you've figured Out what else to build so you made a Holistic solution again goes back to Truly understanding your users and the Problems that they're having yeah yeah I Think that has been that's been the kind Of interesting thing about calendly is That while you get a Google or whoever Building you can ever doing something in A very unique way and you've got this Kind of loyalty of your users which is What I think you build on I think that's Exactly what you're saying listen I'm so Sorry to say it but we're out of time Um it's been so lovely to have you all Um you're also interesting I think there Is a q a stage going on elsewhere and at Least a couple of you are coming if not

All of you thank you so much thanks Everybody

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