Web3 brands and NFTs are on a global race for adoption with Yat Siu from Animoca Brands

Hey everyone it's Jacqueline melanic Welcome to chain reaction a show that Unpacks and Dives deep into the latest Trends and news breaking things down Block by block for the crypto curious This year we're doing monthly series Diving into different topics and themes In crypto and to start things off this Month we're focusing on nfts I'm Interviewing some of the biggest nft Players and Founders about how they've Weathered the booms and bus in this Sector what they're focused on and what Could be next for the industry hope you Enjoy today's guest is y co-founder and Executive chairman of Anoka Brands Yak Co-founded Anoka in 2014 and since then Has invested in over 400 web 3 projects Across a range of sectors like defi Education infrastructure marketplaces Blockchain gaming and metaverse to name A few Anoka also has its own nft Collections blockchain products and Games like it's web 3 nft based Community moochae the blockchain game And nft collection rev racing and the Sandbox a decentralized virtual world With over 40 million mobile installs in Addition to all of this Anoka has worked With other well-known Brands and Personalities like Disney WWE Power Rangers The Walking Dead Formula E and Snoop Dog hopefully you know some of Those names with all of that said

There's a lot we can discuss here so Yeah welcome to the Show thank you for having me it's a Great pleasure to be here yeah and to Start you've met a lot of people you Work with a lot of companies so I'm Excited to hear your answer on this one But can you tell us about one of the Most interesting people you've met in Crypto in the past 12 months and what Did you learn from Them oh interesting people in crypto Well I would say first like I think Everyone in crypto is kind of Interesting because to be in a space you Kind of have to be a little bit sort of Cooky and wild and sort of rebellious Shall we say so I would say that Generally speaking I think everyone in The space is is interesting but I think Um you know uh I think one of the people That I would say that probably was um a Lot of fun to to talk to is probably Arthur Hayes um he he was he was a lot Of fun just in the sense that he kind of Has a sort of um a Dean mentality Obviously very smart about the space as Well no holds SP kind of conversations Um and also in you know we most recently Had a had a had a um a round table Conversation that was fun as well um so Yeah so you know I would say generally Speaking I mean there's so many people So I I don't really want to single

Anyone out in particular but he's the First that comes to mind just because of His personality and everything he's been Through yeah for sure I've met Arthur as Well and he's a very interesting person So you don't know who he is go look him Up but we've spoken in the past yet About all the themes I mentioned in the Intro and I know there was a lot there And there's many ways we could drive This conversation but I wanted to begin By asking you more about your Perspective on what digital property Rights are and why does it matter and How do nfts play into that and then we Could go from there Well I mean digital property rights for Us we think is fundamental uh in a sense That it is something that we weren't Able to do before in the world of I Guess Web Two And even web one meaning That we now have a way in which we can Really own our digital assets and if you Think about uh so and which in Consequence also means our sort of Ownership in our digital time and Attention and the things that we do and We kind of think of it from the Perspective of you know U what is really Ours like in a physical world we used to Think that what was ours is obviously Not just a place we live in but you know The you know the work that we do and the The the craft that we create and the

Items that we make and so it's physical In nature and then you know in a kind of Classic lock in sense you could say that You know what we craft with the hands is Sort of our own sort of our own creation But of course you know Lock's idea is About you know hundreds of years old Actually more like four or 500 years old So really when we're thinking about sort Of the context of today we no longer Create things with the labor of our Hands we actually create things with our Mind with our ideas with our time and Attention and that actually creates Really large quantities of valuable data And that valuable data however although It all to be ours isn't actually ours Anymore in the world of web 2 because we Willingly give it away because we don't Actually quite know how to Value it and So what's happened is is that we've been Farmed for a time and attention and we Don't have any of these rights uh that We've created in terms of the data that We create for the platforms so we think That every time you use Instagram or Every time you use Tik Tok you're Actually working for the plat form and You're not really getting paid much of Anything for it at all and so that in s Sense we think we live in a kind of Digital feudal age and that to us is Kind of the world that we exist in right Now and so web 3 solves that because in

The same way that you own your Bitcoin Which is sort of I guess you could say The first innovation of how you can Really own a sovereign digital asset Regardless of its value we can now do This with all of our things in the Digital online world and I think nfts Are particularly valuable in this case Because they are non-fungible meaning That they're unique and in our physical Life everything really around us is Unique in a sense the clothes we wear The identity we have the weddings we Have you know like all these things we Customize our homes right we make them Ours we we create our stories and our Cultures around them and so nfts are These digital stores of culture that we Can then transfer on and when you have Ownership it means that actually people Can start to compose freely on top of Them as we do in the physical world the Example we always give is when you Actually own a car you know we can I can Come to as the owner of the car and say Let me make a baby seat for you or let Me hire your driver I a service for you You know can I wash your car right like I do all these things and I don't have To talk to the creator of the car for Permission to do any of this or pay a Tax but I mean it's kind of like today In the web two world it's like if I want To wash someone's car I got to pay

Volkswagen maybe a 30% fee or i g to pay Tesla a 30% fee or whatever platform fee That they generate because you know we Don't really own it right that's what Apple and what um what Facebook and These companies do and and we've really Come to a world where in web 2 we exist In these platforms as you know they're Rentier networks they're basically Platforms where we constantly pay rent Just to exist on them so we don't own Anything and in web 3 basically we can Have that ownership and It ultimately Boils down to us about ownership of data And the derivative that data creates Because if it wasn't for our data we Wouldn't have chat GPT we wouldn't have Open AI uh we wouldn't have self-driving Cars and yet all of this activity that We or value that we generated how much Do we get in the answer is nothing uh so So this is sort of why I think web 3 is So important especially given the fact That AI is going to become such a Prevalent part of our Lives um and yet We you know have no control or ownership Over any of It well don't you think in a way that Ownership is kind of I mean it's nominal In web to we see it with like X Twitter Whatever you want to call it they give Back ad Revenue to some creators Tik Tok Does that YouTube has some things like That even Spotify you know gives music

Creators like some percentage and yes it Is smaller than what web 3 would Typically give but how do you kind of See that bridge closing between the two In the future the fundamental of any Property rights regardless of what it's Digital physical is that it's Sovereignly yours as it's your Sovereign Ownership and you decide what to do with It and you decide to feeds and you Decide whether you can or cannot sell it Uh and all the rights ATT the problem in Web 2 is you don't have any of these RS And the other problem of course is that If you think that you own your Instagram Handle or your ex handle think again I Mean the person who used to own the ad Music handle just lost it just because Elon said I want to go into the music Business and uh and the person who owned The ad X handle he lost it too and for Those of you who may not remember the PE The lady in Australia who used to own The metaverse handle when Facebook Renamed of meta she briefly lost her Handle as well because you know Facebook Was accusing her of impersonating a Company which had just renamed itself Literally the month before so it's Impossible uh yeah exactly and and you Know when the largest game company one Of the largest game companies in the World epic in this case can't even Launch their app on the app store

Because Apple says they don't basically Don't like their commercial terms or Whatever it is then I don't think we Exist in the world where we actually Have any property rights whatsoever I Think that's a very fundamental Difference payment aspect the side right And that means also that we don't have a Market right so the point of property Rights is that you actually the Foundation of capitalism is property Rights and so the irony of course that Right now actually in in web 2 You could Argue that actually we no longer have a Free market either because we don't get To decide the prices we don't get to Decide what is discovered in fact when You're thinking about sort of the Discovery of Spotify from a music Standpoint it recommends music to you Not necessarily just based on what's you Know the best taste for you but maybe What makes most money for Spotify and The kind of ads that you see or the kind Of sort of you know products that being Promoted to you are not necessarily the Ones that you really want or create a Market it's actually the ones that the Platform think are most beneficial Including the kind of news that you Should see that create maybe the most Clicks or the most reactions or whatever That might be so so I don't think um we Have any property rights in web two I

Think there's fundamentally a very very Big difference between web two and web 3 Put another way you know if uh if uh you Know any one of these platforms have a Change of heart in what you do in terms Of you know we've experienced this Ourselves I mean all of our apps at one Point got removed from the app store Because Apple didn't like something About us and we don't you know we never Actually really got a full answer Actually any answer as to what that was Right uh and I don't think anyone of us Want to live in a place where our homes Can literally be taken away and our Property can be removed just because we You know not because we've done any Crime or anything just because someone Doesn't like it and and that's exactly The way that we live in web 2 and that's Why I think web three is is so Important I I agree with you on that and I think property rights are so important And being able to like own your brand And have it on a platform without losing It is so significant too like whether It's the app store or Twitter wherever It may be uh and I know in the past you And I have talked about building a brand And it's hard to build a brand I'm sure Without a community and this is Something that a lot of crypto projects Day in and day out have to deal with and Cultivating a community launching it and

Or not launching it but launching a Project cultivating community and all of These different things to build a brand Is kind of in my opinion what makes some Companies or nft collections whatever it May be stand out and as someone who has Invested in hundreds of projects I'm Curious what makes nft projects stand Out to you when there are thousands of Nft collections out there especially During the hype of it all people were Trying to get in how do you decide which Nft projects to invest in and look At so actually we've done over 450 Investments so far and that's continues To accelerate and one of the big reasons Why we believe uh the strategy of Investing the way that we do make sense Is because we believe in the shared Network effect that web 3 can provide uh And that comes from the basis that all Of us actually can become our own Platforms and because we have property Rights attached to them now when you Have property rights to whatever it is That you do you actually become a Platform of your own whe whether you're Platform for a million people or 10,000 People or 100 people doesn't really Matter you're your own platform Sometimes the example I is set of a Restaurant you know you could be McDonald's which is a really really big Platform or you could be a Michin Star

Restaurant which could be a platform for Just a thousand people they charge Really higher fees but they are a Platform they own the product they own The brand they just you know you go There for the experience that is you Know the one that you want to have with That individual or that group of people And you don't have to go through an Intermediary and pay a tax every time Basically share that experience and so Nft projects exist in the same way so When you whether you look at land and Sandbox whether you look at mooche or Whether look at a board ape for instance When you own one board ape you're a Member of that entire community and the Ownership of all of these nfts in that Community or subset of that Community Becomes a platform in and of itself and It becomes a platform because I'm able To tell its value in the market because It is an open market for instance I Might be prepared to you know give more Benefits or special services to someone Who owns a Bard a because I know that You know he has assets between $50 to $100,000 and in the same way that if you Able to Target every Rolex owner or Every Lamborghini owner for instance Directly and you knew how to do that you Probably give them special discounts or Benefits or Services as well because you Want to attract that customer one of the

Problems we have in web 2 is that you Know you might have I don't know a Million followers on the Rolex U you Know brand page and you want to Target Those guys but we definitely know that There's not a million people who own a Rolex right you know all the people are Actually in the Rolex Facebook page or Instagram page don't actually have one Maybe you don't even know if they if They're serious about it I just how do Exactly exactly so how do you actually Address the ones who really own it or Act for True interest and that's Basically what nfts do they they provide That authenticity that ownership that You and that sort of uh authentic layer Of knowing that he's a real person for Which day they can be receive benefits And then what happens is that because You know it's a real user the benefits Come to you as opposed to you having to Use a middleman to basically try to find A way to reach them which is you know What's happening um in the web 2 world Today So in gaming you know which is a big Space focused on it that's a perfect Example gaming spends you know like I Think CPA or CPI ads uh were something Like a hundred billion dollar last year Uh which is a lot of money for a $200 Billion industry and what's interesting About that of course is that we know

That when they spend all this money in Advertising less than one or two or 3% Actually really convert into a paying Customer which basically means that a Huge amount of money as we know in the Premium space is basically spent on People that actually you know don't have Any real value and we don't even know How to address them and how many times Have you seen the same ad over and over Again right so the point yeah exactly so The point is is that the platforms live Off the fact that we actually advertise Inefficiently and they don't really want To Target you directly whether it's op Or not that doesn't really matter right Um and so so now what happens in web 3 When you know in the form of airdrops or Free nfts what actually happens is they Say heyy if you're a true owner of a Sandbox land or true owner of a Mur or Bape I'm going to give you a freebie now The whole point of the freebie whether It's an nft or whether it's tokens or Whatever that is isn't just hey let's Give out free money it's an incentive to Bring the customer to you to become your Customer potentially and actually you're Paying money to the person or you're Giving value to the person you want as Opposed to using a platform in the Middle that takes a giant fee and of Course they say oh but we only take 30% Or 40% of the fee but the reality is

They're actually taking much more Because it's so inefficient whereas if I Really know it and you have that nft you Can you know do your claim and now I can At the moment you do your claim I can Teach you about my product and I can Attract you and you're happy to do it Because instead of me having paid Thousands or tens of thousands of Dollars to Google I end up basically Paying that kind of value to the end User that I really want to attract and That's basically where the whole world Of you know targeting advertising Marketing that sort of append itself Because at the end of the day every nft Platform every individual actually has The ability to become a platform by Themselves and when you look at for Instance even what Facebook does with Instagram every time you have your Followers in Instagram yet you don't Know who all these followers are but Actually you are a platform you've Created a social platform whether it's Between the friends you know or the Network around you except that they've Dis intermediate as sufficiently such That you can't actually take your users With you because you're stuck there and So actually all you did was enrich their Platform and next thing you know Suddenly you become dependent on their Platform because when you leave you have

Not so impossible switching cost you Actually lose your entire business right So so this is actually uh the problem That that happens um in in the web web To space and another thing that I want To sort of highlight as well and I think This is the biggest problem we have in Web to is that when you think of all the Money that's spent on these platforms You know be it Apple Facebook Google Microsoft whatever you know they charge A platform for you which is like 30% and Then they charge you all this Advertising which you have to pay for All this value how much of that money Goes back into the ecosystems which Empowered them the answer is almost Nothing you know of the billions of Dollars that we spend on advertising in These platforms how much of them go back Into the gaming industry for instance Does Apple or Google or Facebook invest In the gaming industry and the answer is Of course no right in fact they don't Invest in their own app store ecosystem Which I think is ridiculous right so What do you think would be the solution For that then well I mean the solution To that is um that in web 3 anyway Because you are part of the same network That regardless and it's sort of sort of Very much antim monopolistic qualities What happens is that even if you don't Have success in your own product the

Fact that you s someone else succeeds on The ethereum network or polygon or Whatever that system may be the entire Network shares in that Network effect as A result and we've seen this effect by The way with axi infinity and pixels on The r in chain for instance right you're Basic building on a shared network and And and and the way that you we think That the right approach is therefore you Can't expect sort of a zero sum outcome In fact we think the days of zero sum in Web 3 are basically gone right you can't Have a single winner because everyone in The platform wins as a result of being a Member of that platform which is kind of How we think it should work um and and I Think the the the model of course is That in the web to world or the Corporate world this idea that you make A you know you maximize your profit but Actually you're not putting back into The ecosystem is a bad model you know Take a look at for instance Apple's cash Balance what $163 billion doll you know It's crazy it's a lot in fact in fact I Was reading somewhere that the top 13 The big 13 biggest companies in the in The um which are basically I think Almost all if not all of them tech Companies are sitting on about a Trillion dollars of cash a trillion Dollars of cash right and so the Question we have to ask ourselves is

That trillion dollars is it productive Or what is it doing and it's sitting Somewhere in Ireland tax optimized with Some you know trading interest rates but The reality is is that if they even took Just 10% or 5% this take 5% of the cash And reinvested it into the ecosystems That made them right we think two things Will happen one the investments will Actually be more valuable than the cash Deployment itself because of course when You think of Apple and if they had Invested in many of the earliest you Know companies that succeeded in the app Store they would have made more money Than the capital that they would have Invested but number two they would have Created a healthier ecosystem a more Balanced ecosystem and everyone would be Much more happier paying 30% fees to Apple or Google whoever it is that they Pay because they're putting back into The ecosystem right it's not so entirely Extracted and so we think that's the Model for web 3 which is also the reason Why we make so many Investments and we Don't stop doing it because we think of It in the same way which is that if we Make money from the ecosystem the way That we create value isn't only by sort Of you know like taking money out of Sy That's actually we think bad but Actually by reinvesting in ecosystem we Win both ways because even if the

Business or two that we invested in did Not succeed actually the entire Ecosystem ended up benefiting as a whole Now we're not the App Store so the way That we created this network effect for Ourselves is we invested so broadly in The space that we're effectively almost Like a web three index because we with All the L1 and l2s so we can be sort of Chain agnostic but in Apple's case right I mean you know I mean imagine if they Took you know1 billion right of their Cash hord and decided to reinvest it in Building the App Store ecosystem Especially the Indie developers to help Grow that you know it would it would Create a flourishing ecosystem as Opposed to one that basically died no Indie no Indie developer will tell you That he can make money on App Store Anymore he doesn't have a way of being Discovered he's kind of hidden somewhere He doesn't have the marketing dollars to Do any of that right so right so I think I think this is uh and I think this is a Big problem we have in the world broadly Speaking and one of the reasons why I Think web 3 and crypto is also so much Rising the way that it is because it is The only way in which the you know let's Call it a person who isn't privileged Actually has an opportunity today I mean Even with AI think about sort of the Incredible opportunities that AI purport

To give us how can anyone accept the VCS In the world participate in that Opportunity and the answer is they can't Like we can't invest I mean being the Users but yeah by being the user guess What we get some benefit by using the Service but we give so much more back Into the system with our data where the Prompts where the questions right so Actually these systems are designed to Farmers right and that I think and again I think um you know web 3 is really the Only answer to to create a world that's More fair and Equitable which is um Which comes from the fact that we can Have property rights the foundation of That is that we have actual ownership of Our things and then we can decide the Market prices and the value for it as Opposed to the platform that basically Just it dis intermediates Us that was a lot yeah I loved it um and I think it it stemmed originally from The brand conversation and I'm still Thinking about what you said where it's Like you could be a McDonald's or a Michelin company um and you know both Are equally maybe not equally but They're both important to different Audiences and communities and I know in The beginning I mentioned that Anoka has Worked with like Disney Snoop Dog The Walking Dead other big companies I'm Curious why would you do that do you

Think it's to get those communities into Web 3 and how important is it for other Web 3 companies to do the same if they Have you know the the funds to do so so Generally speaking we're most excited About what we call wave three native Brands right so if you look at our Investments actually we invested with It's cool cats or yugul babes or you Know like basically all of these direct Communities you know San FR Tokyo like Those are the networks that we're super Excited about because we think that They're actually going to uh really make A difference because also the brand IP Is co-owned by the community which is Really exciting as well so we think That's the better future but we also Work with the big Brands because one They're really hungry to enter the sort Of the the web 3 space uh you know Because they obviously see opportunity But the second one also is is that they Have the trust of the web to community Who don't actually know much about web3 And so we can bring them in and it's Interesting that the fashion and luxury Brands curious enough are the ones that Actually understand the space the best And I you know you know I in my talks I Often give the comparison between a Board ape and a birken bag and you know For a lot of people they often get Confused by that and it's and then when

I tell people well do you buy a birken Bag you know to put stuff in it and then People go oh yeah now I get it now I Understand why you know the value of an Nft you know for status and for social Identity for access to membership in the Community and for culture right that's When people start to get it because Actually if you think about probably Most of what you buy in the physical World how much is it for its raw utility I mean we don't buy cars to TI us from Point A expensive items right exactly Well even even even I mean even you know Relatively cheap items I mean I think You know when you look at shoes like Whether it's from Adidas or whether it's From Nike or whether it's from Kuma or From aex I mean these are utility shoes You could say they're roughly priced the Same not talking about the expensive Ones right but we have attached to the Brand some people only buy Nike and some People only buy Puma or whatever that is And it's not expensive but it's an Expression of who they are right they're Like oh I'm a Nike guy whatever that Means or I'm a puma guy or mic guy and Some people like to wear expensive stuff And some people actually don't right They shun that they're a little bit like Oh you know I'm going to wear not so Expensive stuff to tell people that I'm Not like that right in fact if you tell

People like that to say oh would you Like to wear a Gucci they go no way in Hell because it doesn't fit their brand So the point is that we're all Purchasing things to actually express Our identity in one form or the other And it doesn't always mean that it has To be expensive right and so I think the Digital world is where we express Ourselves most most of the time Especially the younger generation you Know it's more important what skins we Have or it's more important how we're Viewed in the digital world it's more Important how many followers and how Many likes we have on Instagram then it Might be where we were physically seen Or the places we've been because of the Fact that that's where our our social Status lies U so the traditional Brands However they understand that virtual Aspect very well particularly fashion Brands and so they've been one of the First movers in into the space but you Know working with the big Brands is also A marketing method right it's and Frankly that's how they how they make Money they work with the brand to Attract the trust of the customer and Then they basically they come in Into The Web three world and I have to say You know it's it it has mixed results Right Brands who work with you well the Success has been very strong and I think

We've seen early examples of that um you Know like for instance when Dapper labs And you know worked in one of our other Portfolios worked with um the NBA for NBA topshot that was sort of one of the First moments and where you know a mass Audience started to understand oh wait a Second what's an nft what is all mean Right but I think we've evolved since Then right and we work closely with Brands like Moto GP and Formula E to Sort of try to replicate similar type of Scenarios we also do you know Advertising so we've had some big Billboard advertising on sort of some Moto GP race Billboards for instance to Try to promote to wider audience uh you Know we don't do this necessarily Because we think they are directly Revenue generating we do this sometimes Just for broader awareness as well just To try to you know basically um um get More people into the space and and make Them aware of that so so I think that's You know something that all of us have To do in in one form or the other but we Are mostly excited about sort of web3 Native Brands and uh sort of the new Businesses and and you know I'll close With this thought which is I think that Nfts allow us and the whole digital Property right space allow us to create A much more diverse ecosystem uh because Now you can actually have a sustainable

Web business even if it's small whether It's an nft collection whether it's a Gaming system that might only have Thousands or tens of thousands of Customers I mean just think about some Of the Nft collection that are out there they Don't have a million customers right in Web two you can't succeed unless you Have 10 million customers but in web 3 You can be a sustainable business with Thousands or tens of thousands because There's more value this share because You have Capital formation and that's Kind of the example if you're you know You might be very happy creating very Exquisite you know um sort of Experiences for a thousand customers we Do not complain going to a Michin Star Restaurant paying the kind of fees that We do because right we Cherish The Experience as as ridiculous it might Seem what why would you spend that much Money for a single meal but it Delights Us it gives us you know it gives us um You know we enjoy that culture and uh we Come out somehow enriched by it and the Same is true for nfts right you talk to People who own nftd they don't think of It purely as utility they think of it as Culture and community and access and and Uh and I think that will be will have Many many thousands more of these Brands Out there that can now flourish because

Of nfts yeah I also think with the Michelin not it's like something you Could put on social media say you've Gone there experienced things right Expose yourself to new things and same Applies to nfts I'm curious what other Characteristics do you think nfts have That other crypto sectors do not use and Should adopt yes one of the biggest Areas that we been pushing strong on Nfts and we' we've started doing this With teachers and Educators is around Creating essentially contract rights That allow essentially for intellectual Property protection and intellectual Property Capital formation so one of the Biggest problems that we have in you Know the physical property right space Is that in order to have an asset that Can have Capital formation and value Creation it needs to be a certain size Uh so maybe like a house or maybe a Music that makes like a million dollars A year or something that's worth it Because you have to you know hire a Lawyer they have to sign a contract they Have to protect it they have to defend It they have to do all these things to Make sure that the asset is worth Protecting and and and and investing in Which means that only things that have a Certain dollar value can actually be Turned into Capital assets but what if You live in a place like Venezuela uh or

Like Philippines where your a monthly Salary is maybe1 or $15 and you might Create some content or asset that Actually might give a yield because People will use it like what we doing With teachers like with tiny Tab and Open campus where they're making maybe1 Or $15 a year in addition now that's a Nice side income but you can't do Capital formation with this in a Traditional sense as a yield instrument Because no lawyer will do that work Because it'll cost way too much money For a lawyer to do the contract then Your actual asset is worth but with an Nft you could do all of that in a single Transaction the IP rights intellectual Property rights where the money goes Everything can be done in a transaction That's less than a dollar so that means That when you have something that's Worth 10 or $15 a a year you can now Sell it for $50 to $100 because now it's An asset that makes I don't know 10 15 Maybe 20% yield depending on what it is And we've seen that effect when teachers In these countries have started making Assets where they're making you know a Small yield and then investors from all Over the world have said hey you know I'm going to buy this I can make more Value out of this but either way I think It's valuable because it gives me a 10 Or 15 or 20% yield actual yield that's

Happening uh and and so we think that Kind of encapsulation of Ip rights can Actually extend you know not just for Teachers and Educators but just for Everyone who creating intellectual Property there's a large amount of Intellectual property that can't be Capitalized or protected because it Wasn't worth it but now with nfts you Can I give you one more example for Instance with one of another portfolio Called Dance fight they are actually Protecting their IP rights with dance Moves now that sounds almost like Whimsical and funny you know like you Know Street Dancers basically protecting Their rights into dance movs but you Know um one of the creators he shared a Story and he said you know he loved to Play fortnite and then one day you know He his St move which was on Tik Tok was Became an emoticon I became an emoji and A move on fortnite and he didn't pay Fortnite basically stole his dance move And he couldn't prove it because they Just took it from Tik Tok and he Couldn't prove that he created or the Data was minted or whatever it was and So now with you know blockchain you can Make a dance move you can immortalize it As an nft at the date in which you did It so that you can no longer argue well When was it created I don't know if you Really to create it what's the

Background because now the you know an Onchain Dynamic GR proves when you did It how you did it and what it is that You did so that if someone afterwards Was going to say they took that then at Least you can you know have a trademark Or copyright claim you know in places Like the US you don't have to go to to To an office to do that if you can prove Original creation so so these are other Ways in which you can basically start to Defend your rights uh that really sort Of empowers everyone to do that and I Think again in this age of AI it's so Much so important because you know how Do you VAR ify whether this art is Really from you how do I verify that I'm Actually talking to the true Jackie for Instance as an example or but exactly Exactly right um and and and um you know When you can forge it and so easily with You know basically AI today and so this Is where blockchain uh and nfts are Important because now I can tell if it's Really you because there's a hash There's a key there's a signature Attached to it um and also royalty Rights if I use an AI and I generate Something new out of the value of a Thousand people or 10,000 people or say Even a million people right actually you Know which mechanism exists today in web 2 where you can actually properly Account for that in an open and

Transparent manner where nobody will Question the value that's generated and Again onchain Dynamics is the best way Of doing that because it's fully Auditable and you can share the value According to whatever algorithm you You've you've designed for for everyone To see so so there's a lot of reasons Why I think you know blockchain Technology will help solve many of the World's biggest problems that are you Know uh incoming why do you think it Hasn't been adopted yet though do you Think it's the negative connotation that Has come with the word nfts or just the Web three space as a whole or is it a Lack of understanding and accessibility Education I mean there's a lot of ways We could like say why it hasn't but I'm Curious where you stand on it couple Couple things I mean I had a interesting Several conversations with um actually Simon cnic about this and he he he well He said one of the first things we Probably should do as an industry is Drop the word fft and probably drop the Word meterse we have heard this many Times yep yes and and I think there's a Good reason behind that because you know It's it's a classic example of sort of You know putting a technical term you Know after all non-fungible token Doesn't really describe our industry Very well uh and uh but I think also I

Think there's this little thing that uh The word itself has been tainted and has Been confused so when we talk about the Metaverse for instance you know we talk About digital property rights meta or Facebook talks about VR you know Microsoft talks about something else you Know Apple says meta versus you know Rubbish we talk about sort of you know Spatial Computing like whatever whatever The terms might be you know right there Is no common framework of agreement Around sort of what that word is so in Some ways I think as an industry we Probably need to sort of find a new term That sort of encapsulates really what it Means which is why we've been focusing a Little bit more on sort of so much more On the topic of digital property rights But property rights in and of itself Does sound a little bit sort of you know Again a bit technical uh and and so Something that most people might not Fully appreciate uh in Asia though nfts And blockchain is actually very very um Very much more adopted it's much more Popular and it doesn't have those Negative connotations so adoption is Much faster compared to the West Partially it has a little bit to do Obviously with the you know scandals of The past and the problems about the Industry and the fear that is sort of Generated but I would say one of the

Bigger issues to me that I'm think Particularly when it comes to gaming When people are rejecting nfts in gaming In the west as opposed to in the East Where it's welcomed you notice that the Reaction isn't a logical one it's a very Emotional one right I mean they're They're sort of seething from from the Mouth right they're angry they get R Right they talk about you know they they Talk about it like it's like the worst Thing ever they you know frankly you Know if they don't care who cares like In some ways you could argue if you Don't like NFS it's okay no skin off Your back why would you be so bothered By it right but it's very personal to Them and I think one of the big reasons Why it feels so personal is because of The fact that it involves money um and Of course everything in the world Involves money but it this sense it Feels like um digital capitalism sort of Come come home in a very sort of big way Uh and in America for instance I think You know we see this with you know the Political movements as well that Especially amongst um Young Americans um A large group of them uh they've become Fairly anti- capitalist in their Perspectives and you know now even you Know Which way you swing in terms of the Socialist Direction it's become a

Political platform because capitalism Hasn't done well for you um and hasn't Done well for most people of the younger Generation and money and capital starts To feel feudal as in if I have money I Make more money I have power I have Access say suppose to someone who Doesn't right so in the same way that People were very negative towards people In the finance industry if you remember How people talk about bankers and so on They kind of talk about people in crypto In the same sort of group which is Ironic because actually the people in Crypto are actually the rebels of that Industry right they're the ones who Basically sort of uh sort of railed Against The Establishment and basically Created an alternative system precisely Because they were Against The Establishment that's how it actually Started now we've got the establishment Back in but that's beside the point Great great but but exactly right and And now the establishment back in Exactly but I think this is the part Where where I think um the reaction Comes from right so I think it's more More of a reaction towards broadly the Negative views on capitalism uh and the Fear right and many comments say I don't Want my game fancified you know I don't Want money in the game I don't want it To pervert the game play like you know

In some ways especially um sort of Premium gaming in the western world is Probably one of the very few places Where it appears that you know you can Have sort of a meritocracy if I'm good At the game I can have social status I Can succeed and I don't necessarily need Money at least that's what what they Think what they don't realize is that Their time and attention is heavily Fancified and monetized off the back on An industry that makes 200 billion Dollars a year plus right and of which You get nothing for it even though you Help contribute value to that ecosystem But because they don't see it they are Arbitraged out of this and by the way This is what happened in in you know in Web one when people were arbitraged out Of their knowledge of Trades of of goods That they could trade you know farmers In Asia didn't know what the real value Of their goods whether it's rice Vegetables or whatever was sold in America right and so they were always Exploited and they thought life was good And then they saw the internet and the Internet is like oh wait a second my Product is being sold for a 100x of what Actually I'm being paid wait a second I Should be paid more you know and that Gave rise to the alibas and the ebays And the Amazon of the world as a way to Sort of create value there and then of

Course it allowed for intermediaries to Come in to say you know if this guy is Not willing to pay you a fair share I Will because there's still money to be Made right so so this is now what's Possible in web 3 with data and so I Think this is again the thing that People don't understand that it's not About the money it's about the Transparency of the ecosystem the entire Financial ecosystem and the trade and of Of of of whatever assets that happen Inside a video game for instance now Becomes available for everyone to audit And see so I can see what the game items Are worth I can see who's paying for it I can see who's playing more on it I can See what value is generating which then Means I can share value or I can trade With you something that so it's it's Creating more transparency in the Ecosystems and because I think a lot of People don't understand how money works That's the other problem um you know I Would say the world is mostly Financially illiterate they have a bank Account but they have no financial Literacy they don't have a an Investment Portfolio they don't teach it in school For sure they don't teach it in school Um you know and and so as a result uh They're ignorant and you know what's Their first experience um student debt Right which which leads especially with

These interest rates to another kind of Indented servitude over time how many Years do they have to spend to repay Their debt right that's a relationship They have with money so you can't really Blame them for for being so negative About it so I think again I think um This problem needs to be solved which I Think web 3 and crypto can actually help Solve when it comes to finishing the Race to the finish line so to speak Which region do you think is embracing Web 3 the best or more specifically Nfts well definitely the asia-pacific Region is embracing nfts faster than any Other region uh you can see it as Basically you know even from the policy Standpoint it's not even just from the Population standpoint you know it's uh Hong Kong itself has basically embraced Digital assets you know Japan and the Prime Minister himself has put metaverse And nfts and web3 on the map I mean even China has put out a web three strategy Paper a white paper uh and you know xiin Ping himself has said how blockchain and Web 3 is you know kind of the future of The internet you know he of course did Not make any mention of crypto But you know the point is is that you Know Hong Kong plays a role where you Know you can have crypto in Hong Kong And Northern China and there sort of This Gateway effect that's taking place

There so you know take take take that Hint as you will but the point basically Being that there's clearly a push Forward uh in terms of pushing web3 Technologies including nfts and Generally sort of digital assets in this Space and the Middle East is kind of the Same as well Middle East is pushing it Heavily as well it's not just the UAE I Mean it's turkey and it's you know and Now you recently with partnership with Neo and Saudi you know they partner with Us because precisely because they want To sort of enter into the web 3 world And I think there's really a couple Thematics around here that that drive This the first one obviously is a broad Thematic around sort of not wanting to Have too much dependency on the US Economy and on the dollar right so I Think that's something that you know a Lot of uh a lot of um sort of countries Have sort of had concern around so I Think you know web3 particularly digital Assets and crypto provide an alternative Towards that uh and then I think the Second one is of course which I think is A bigger issue is the fact that if you Think about it almost all of the world With exception the ones that have closed The ecosystems have been hly become Digital dependence on technology from American businesses right so in other Words whether it's Facebook or whether

It's Amazon or whether it's Microsoft Whether it's Google you name it apple Right basically you know all of the World you know whether it's Europe or Whether it's you know Asia Pacific has Actually become dependent on you know Basically these uh these these very Powerful you know as we call them sort Of yeah feudal digital you know entities As you go and I say feudal I say feudal Because you know um you know a couple Years ago I would quote the comment Where you know Facebook essentially Censored Australian media effectively When Australia said hey you got to pay Us something and oh look what happened In Canada just say a couple weeks ago Right you know I mean the point is that If there can be uh if you can actually Censor an entire nation's you know Basically media output how is that okay Like and and you know why is there a Private corporation that even feels Entitled that it can do that in the sake Of profits as opposed to you know for The broader benefit this is wasn't Possible before I mean you couldn't you Couldn't do that so I think this is kind Of the situation we have and now imagine If you have that happening even in Western democracies you know what Happens in other countries around the World where the interest the national Interest of the country is not at all in

The corporate interest of the company in Question right so so so either you ban Them right or you basically are Dependent on them and you can't Basically ensure that they have a National interest in mind and so that's Another reason why I think many of these Countries are pushing web3 Technologies Because they see it as a way to Essentially break themselves free from Sort of this web to dominance uh and in The sort of you know to the extent that You know their own businesses that They're building won't necessarily be The winners in the space because that's Not how it works you know by create by Participating in a decentralized network It's broadly a better outcome uh rather Than basically being in a centralized Network that can basically make these Decisions that are sort of against your Interest right so so that's kind of you Know another reason why why countries Like Asia are sort of accelerating in This area because they have witnessed What happened to them you know in the Last 10 years and they don't like it Right so there's so that could drive it For Asia and the Middle East as you Mentioned but what about the US like What are they getting wrong or not Understanding that is kind of inhibiting Them is it the regulatory environment or Something else I mean I think it's

Definitely the regulatory environment Particularly with the SEC has not been Helpful it's very clear that um the Policy or the lack of policym shall we Say has created definitely a sentiment Of fear uncertainty and doubt right fud For classic uh just because just because I think that's the effect that they're Looking to do because you know one of The big biggest problems you create when You have you know these elements of you Know fear and then uncertainty is that People start to self-censor right people Start to stop doing the things they Think is right because they have to Start second guessing is that the right Thing to do should I do this I don't Really know and actually the Insidious Part about that is suddenly you're Silencing yourself you know which of Course is a very unamerican thing but When you're worried about it uh when you Don't know and then serious yeah yeah Becomes more serious and suddenly Becomes part of your culture and Suddenly you're just like um you you're Just shy to start and next thing you Know you don't even get up right and you Know we've seen this happen in other Places around the world and it's very Sad to see that you know the us is going Through this at the moment however you Know um never count out the us because Because of its history the US is

Obviously built by people who are pretty Feisty uh they're pretty com you know Combative and they absolutely you know For those who believe that they know What's right right they'll fight for it And they'll go to court they do whatever And that's what's happened right and you Have you know the USS Champions like Coinbase for instance right or the guys At misari or those guys who basically You know paying sort of um doing the Good fight in in the US and pushing the Industry forward and now you know with The court Victory on bitcoin spot ETFs It forced the essentially to allow that To happen begrudgingly so one might add Right know I think Gary Gensler was very Very clear to say just because we Approved the ETFs doesn't mean we Approve of crypto you know like it's not An endorsement of Bitcoin let's just be Clear about that sure okay fine right But and I think that's that is a Beautiful thing about the us that you Can still have disagreement the fact That there is a you know just because One one entity says no doesn't mean the Rest of the entities have to agree right Yeah um so I think I think I think you Know and when the US comes back into Full force which we believe will happen You know um maybe in the next 12 to 18 Months right you know maybe post Elections not sure uh then you know we

Should should be very wary of how Aggressively the US will move because of Its capital because of its talent Because of its speed and frankly you Know I think crypto and web 3 is about As American as it gets right which just You know like in terms of property Rights and Liberty and freedom and Everything that it sort of purports for The digital world you know it's very Much in speaking of I would say the Values of the American Constitution and Sort of the American way of life so I Think once that's fully understood I Think I think you'll have um the US will Have um a very big competitive Advantage Because it's I think in the nature of Most Americans but I think there's a Misunderstanding because because of all Of the media and the News um and you Know something else that I was told as Well which I'm not quite sure but it's Some an interesting comment I think that There is also a little bit of um a sort Of a classist undertone as well that's Happening in the US as well right Between people of let's call them Traditional and old money and the web3 Crypto folks were really you know Frankly new money and also maybe not From sources that normally have made Money before and they suddenly emerged With wealth and it's like oh so I'm now In this social class but I don't look

This way or I'm not part of that group Right and you know Silicon Valley went To that experience 20 30 years ago right There was a sort of rejection of oh you Know these guys in sweatpants and sort Of Engineers but now they're like the Top but but now but now they're The Establishment right right so so you're Kind of going through these Cycles so I Think I think a little bit of that as Well right um and I think when we look At some of the democratic uh party sort Of politics around this you know you Have to wonder sometimes you know where That translates to in terms of people's Impressions I mean you know one of the Things that always puzzled me you know When SPF was you know first first sort Of you know got into trouble and I think Everyone in Asia was basically just Writing this guy off as a fraud because It was pretty clear but American Media Struggled so hard for time to sort of Make sense of it right they spoken they They said oh oh you know it's it's a Chinese because somehow CZ was somehow Chinese or you know it's crypto the Industry is bad and he's just caught up In sort of you know this bad industry He's a good guy it's like why like why Are they trying to sort of uh sort of You know justify this criminal and and I Think it has a little bit to do with the Fact that you know he he came from I

Guess that class that was supposed to be The good guys right he you know his his Family was academic royalty itively Right he had a background that sort of You know was endearing to to his Experience you know and all Exper MIT everything put together how Can someone like that you know be a Criminal right how can this happen right It must be something else right so I Think there's a little bit of that Undertone right um that that's happened As well and I think I think also America Frankly is in a little bit of a soul Searching of its own identity I mean the Politics that your country is going Through right now from an external Perspective seems to convers another Conversation but but I think I think I Think these effects are coming out in Different ways and and so web 3 is Caught caught between that yeah yeah Well it'll be interesting to see how That kind of all plays out uh we're Almost at time here so I want to make Sure I could ask you our last question We always ask our guest this if there's One piece of advice that you could leave Our listeners with what would that Be um well I mean I think maybe the one That I generally sort of like to live by Is sort of my own personal advice right Which is that you know generally Speaking uh I like to live my life with

You know building with impact and Purpose and in this sense you know I Mean positive impact so normally in the Past I wouldn't add the word positive Just because of the fact that it's it Would be implied but you know in this Case I just want to make very very clear That I mean positive impact right just In case people are misunderstand um but Yeah impact and and purpose I think are Are really important for us and I think If you can you know whatever it is that You do in life it doesn't have to be Crypto it doesn't have to be web three If you're building with a view uh of of Something that has impact and purpose Then I think um you know you'll build Something great and you may not hit it Off the park on day one right but you Know to me when you're trying to build Something with impact and purpose you'll End up building something uh or trying To build towards something that is you Know greater than you and you know that Is a thing that then allows us to have The kind of energy and effort uh that Allows us to get out of bed to be Excited about the future to build a World you know potentially you know with Potential and hope because you know You're building something that's just You know bigger than you uh and I know It sounds corny but it is actually um Something that uh sort of gives me

Energy and you know I'm able to go to All these conferences and talk to all These people and have all these podcasts Late at night or whatever it is Precisely because I am so excited about The in our case the prospect of giving Digital property rights to everyone in The world in the digital context and I Also believe that uh we can save Capitalism because you know we can give People a form of equity in this world Because we can now all own a piece of This web through World which you Couldn't do in web two and that's really Exciting uh and I think you know I can You know I think we can all consider Ourselves very lucky if we actually find That purpose but we have to strive Towards it um and I would sort of Definitely ask everyone if they they Want to have an impact to find that for Themselves I love that well thank you For sharing that and thank you for Coming on the show today I really Appreciate it my pleasure thank you for Having Me


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