The Crypto Gaming Expert: Most Have No Idea What’s Coming Next…

I view the spaces a little bit like Early internet today I interview crypto Gaming expert yatsu and maybe we're kind Of in the 2201 stage founder of Anoka Brands a Hong Kong based gaming software Company of sort of web one but in the Web 3 equivalent and one of the most Successful venture capitalist firms in Crypto so how do you really sort of Invest in that cycle to get advice from A billionaire besides ethereum besides Sol on how to find the most undervalued Crypto games what is the best blockchain For crypto gaming today and which crypto Gaming coins have the biggest growth Potential but I would say the one that I I think is um a little bit of a Dark Horse but I think has incredible Potential what happens after the Bitcoin Having we're not done yet with spot ETFs And much more if you were starting over Today at 22 years old and you had an Extra ,000 in your pocket what are Practical steps or practical things you Would do to go from a th000 to Eventually 100,000 like the video If you Appreciate these conversations and let's Start for the folks that don't know Anoka Brands even though I would assume Many do uh what is it and could you talk About that journey and growth well uh I Guess the mission of anim Brands is to Deliver true digital property rights for All that's basically you know our our I

Guess Mantra and I guess the way that we Got there to do that a lot of people Know us for web3 gaming and that's Really really because you know Gamers We Believe are the most natural onboarder From going from web 2 to web 3 because You know the I guess traditional Gamers Do have an appreciation of I guess a Kind of digital ownership even though They don't you know for instance people Who buy skins or have you know virtual Currency in their games you know they Don't believe they're renting them right They believe they own them even though They don't and so we think the Transition of moving those type of users From this sort of I guess rental style Of I guess gaming into a ownership style Of gaming which is web three is natural Uh our thesis was pretty born back in The days of crypto kites our studio U You know fuel powered actually had our Hand in building crypto kitties um in 2017 and so we basically got a front row Seat into that development and what Seemed a little bit more like a science Experiment just blew up and for those People who don't remember it basically Broke ethereum uh and there's some Interesting parallels by the way because Back in the day you know all the Ethereum guys were like oh my goodness What is this who cares about breeding You know kittens and cats online uh this

Is a waste of space we should not be Doing this um and of course today you Know nfts uh and in particular anything Related to sort of cultural artifacts And in on the ethereum blockchain for Instance is um you know a key part of Its value driver and scaling Solutions And the whole L2 narratives and we're Seeing the whole thing play out now with Bitcoin and ordinals as well exactly the Same thing it's like history repeating 5 Years later anyway sidebar um you know But so so that's kind of the the the way That we we saw the I guess we saw the Light back in 2017 and we said you know We think this is the future digital Ownership um and we can finally actually Make it happen but to build this future We felt that the only way to do it was To really invest in all the companies That can help build it together right Because you know we were a small company Back then and to an extent we still are In a bigger scheme of things it's Impossible to build you know the entire Web through ecosystem ourselves so we Started seeding and investing in many of These companies to help build it Together with us in this collaborative Manner and that's when we sort of put Early checks in like open c um or even Magic e later on or like you know x Infinity or Sky Mavis as you're called You required the sandbox the centraland

You know all these um and of course you Know L1 l2s like polygon for instance as Well so we sort of backed all of those Guys to basically help build ecosystem And today we have over 450 portfolio Companies as well as our subsidiaries Basically that form I guess the family Of animal Brands to help make true Digital prop rights reality for all so Crypto gaming is I mean yeah crypto Gaming is here to stay undeniable in my Opinion yet the the industry or crypto In general just has its grown since 2021 Since 2017 Etc so how is your investors Thesis updated since then or or what did You learn from 2021 that you're taking Into this Cycle I guess first of all the investor Thesis broadly speaking around sort of You know web3 adoption coming through Gaming remains unchanged but perhaps how That's adopted obviously has changed Because we made some assumptions like Many of us did in the industry that in a Kind of quasa sort of build it and they Were come sense right which is basically Hey we're going to build a great web Three game the incentives are so Wonderful you know everyone's going to Want to own their stuff and by the way You know this is thing called play play To earn back then now play earn as it's Called now so there's all these Incentives uh and you know it did grow

For a while but then I think we saw some Shortcomings in the model if we were Just purely focused on these things and I think the biggest issue that we found Wasn't actually the fact that web3 users Wouldn't find these experience valuable It's that the web user actually doesn't Understand what ownership means and how They how they can benefit from this and This was I think one of our key Learnings which is that in order to Actually really create fullon adoption We have to actually also um inform People why web3 matters as in we have to Do we have to explain the meaning of Property rights and how that defends our Freedoms in this case online freedoms And online rights and the consequence of That is because you have ownership you Can have Capital formation and you can Basically have you know create create Value from that in the same way that you Know us as capital owners in the Physical world we derive value from that As well and and also our property rights In physical world is the foundation of Capitalism and defense of basically a Lot of our liberal freedoms that we Enjoy but this is something that is not Straightforward to explain to people who Don't understand this because they kind Of take it for granted they grew up with This environment so they you know they They think property rights are you know

Are given uh and I think this is a Contrast that we see in for instance in The US and in Asia whereas I would argue That the US consequently because they Take it for granted basically um is not As capitalist as we think it is right There's of course a lot of Americans who Are very Pro capitalist but there's a Lot of Americans particular young ones That are have become anti- capitalist And they are you know it's become Fashionable to talk about Karl Marx for Instance right which is kind of insane In the US right but but there you go Where's in Asia you know from my parents Generation we knew of a time when we Didn't have anything as in we had no Property rights and we had no capitalism I mean for some people it's maybe hard To imagine that you know both China and South Korea were amongst the poorest Nations in the world and today basically These are two of the wealthiest Countries in the world um but it became Wealthy because they had a respect for Property rights and introduced Capitalism into the economic system Which basically gave the foundation and So even though the world obviously is Inequitable and there's still a lot of Room to grow to make it fairer uh we Certainly remember a time when things Did not have property rights and I think In the west they take it for granted and

That's also one of the reasons why I Think in the west um you know a lot of Gamers don't like nfts um because they Think of it as a kind of digital Capitalism the rejection of crypto Broadly isn't a rejection of ownership It's a rejection of money or and and the Rejection of money as in you know it's From their perspective sort of uh sort Of created a great Injustice in the Physical world right in the sense that The rich get richer the poor basically Get poor and so they don't want to Introduce that type of system In the digital world which ostensibly Has this quasi meritocratic system of You know when you play a game supposedly You can get achievements just through Skill you don't have to pay your way Into it right all the things you buy in Games are cosmetic but here's the irony You can actually pay money to level you Up you can buy accounts like people do This all the time already There's an Actual trade worth than the hundreds of Millions actually billions of dollars That do that does this uh and so it's a Natural thing that people want to do um It's just that guess there there are People who resist it because they fear That money will have the same effect in The digital world as it has in the Physical world which by the way I don't Think so I think web3 will actually save

Capitalism because it's more fairer uh But that's probably a different topic Altogether but yes um I think the the Adoption Cycles are um and and the Thesis stays the same um I would say I Would say I would add one more thing Which is uh we used to think for Instance that it was very important that The web3 gamer was someone who actively Played the game um and we no longer Think that we basically feel that there Are different categories of web games And there's a category of we gamer that Is more passive so for by holding your Token or by holding your nfts or by Holding your land or whatever it is They're actually just as much a gamer Than the person who's actively playing They just it's a different type of game And they're still participants they Still are active they're still talking To community they add value they just Don't add value in a sort of Labor style Way which is kind of what we see in two Games and I think um I think this is the Big I think the big thing about a web Through game a true web through game Basically introduces both a labor and a Capital Class um and the capital class is Essentially the web3 user whereas in the Web two game you only have Labor there's No Capital class the capital is owned by The company so you never get to see it

So the billions of people that are Playing web two games don't understand Capitalism and don't understand that There's a capital class because it's a Company it's hidden to them and Basically in web 3 it's just opened up And actually think it's more powerful Because the web3 user um basically who's Your Community member also becomes kind Of your stakeholder and your contributor And in some ways um your your Equity Holder or your project very interesting And yeah I want to know because Anoka is Has had great success in Investments and The projects they choose so because you See hundreds if not thousands of Projects put in for front of you as does My audience on a lesser scale you know We just see the crypto Market crypto Gaming a new coin pops up every week What criteria do you use to determine Your Investments okay so first of all I mean There's a classic criteria that I don't Think need to mention about sort of the Equality of Founders and team and so on So I'll skip that I would say you know We look for um Founders and teams that Share in the same principles and values That that we share um so for instance One of the key principles is that we Believe that web 3 is about building in A shared network but what that what does That mean well it means that in a shared

Network we can seek a zero sum outcome Because it doesn't work we don't believe It's possible to have a monopoly because You can have vampire taxs right I mean To see what happened you know with open C versus blur versus looks rare you know Versus magic Eden the reality is that You know your customers are basically Open to everyone and you know through Air drops or other campaigns you can Basically Target you know very a very Very sort of specific way the kind of Customer that you want to have engaged With your platform whether it's Competitive or not for instance right so So that means you have to build with a Different perspective and you have to Build with a mindset where you're Growing in a shared economy rather in One in which you try to monopolize it You know in in in web 2 all the network Effects are basically centralized so They belong to Facebook or they belong To Google or they belong to Apple and so These companies basically are worth Trillions of dollars but what they've Managed to do was a crew Network effects Within themselves and that however we Think is a limit despite the fact that They're worth trillions um but they also Serve probably most of the world right I Mean it's billions of people that they Serve in contrast you know in web 3 Currently we really only serve millions

Of people right so it's not really that Big yet in comparison but the entire Ecosystem is about 2.6 2.7 trillion Dollars in size right now right and when You think about the launch of these Tokens the network effects represented We think tokens are proxies for Networth Effects right are basically in some Cases billions of dollars like pixels Which is also one of our portfolios I Think it's three billion or four billion Doesn't really matter like in the sense That that these are basically really Really big numbers represented in the Value of their of their sort of tokens For instance and um and the founder that Understands this basically is the one That we like to back because they also Understand that they have to collaborate With every right because remember in web Too it's not about collaborating it's About essentially quite the opposite Right it's about essentially sort of Sharp elbows and basically making sure That you know they get a h of the other At the expense of the other but in web 3 You know whether it's through airdrops Or campaigning or whatever actually it's Much more about sort of how do I give a Benefit to someone else in another Network to basically come and join this Network and give value back to them for Instance right so it's a different Mindset it's actually not that different

From advertising and marketing um except That the value goes directly to the end User as opposed to the platform but it's A different mindset right um and so I Think that's one big thing and that also Means that we need those Founders to Really appreciate and understand you Know the power of tokens and by tokens I Don't mean just funable tokens um Because there's projects that might only Have nonf funable tokens you know just Nfts but still they're powerful because They embed with them many values that Create network effects in web 2 we Really only have utility Network effects People don't normally talk about the Financial Network that give Financial Sort of you know basically power but in Web3 you know it's all connected so the Utility and the financial Network are Within the same framework because of Blockchain which means that a true web3 Game or web3 anything without the Financial system built into the uh Without taking advantage of the Financial Network F basically it's not Web3 and so the web two so the web two To web three type of projects often Dubbed web 2.5 um that have failed are Actually the projects that don't take Advantage of the web 3 Financial Network Effects they only focus on the utility Of the sort of the core utility and I Think that's basically another thing we

We we look for Founders to understand Essentially the union of these two Because that's basically blockchain and We Fe besides ethereum besides Solana what Is the best blockchain for crypto gaming Today I think there's a lot of emerging Ones but if I had to say one that's Right now I would say it's probably Ronin you know Ronin basically Powers um You know it's you know pixels and x Infinity I mean that's definitely one That I would say is a key player I mean Obviously the other ones you know Polygon immutable are there as well for Instance you know with been early Backers of them as well I mean these are All chains that we're supportive of but I would say the one that I I think is um A little bit of a Dark Horse but I think Has incredible potential and of course We've been being B backers of it as well I think it's ton right and I think the Reason why Ton's so interesting um and We I think last year it became public That we were the largest validator uh And we also have projects like game for Instance that are now building on T for Instance and doing something interesting There um is that um you know with um With with telegram you have what 800 Million users and and with a sort of the Commercial interface basically EMP Powered effectively through blockchain

With ton you know with a really slick Wallet integration I think that could be An interesting path for Mass adoption And as I mentioned earlier you don't Really become a strong web3 Project Without actually also addressing the Native web3 user right so you can't just Say the web user will turn into web3 you Have to basically also sort of utilize The network effects of existing web Through users and I would say a huge Percent percentage of the web3 community Actually sits on telegram so it's Already kind of there right so I think There's some interesting um sort of Parallels there so that's another one That I'm that we're really excited about But yes today it's Roden and on ton may I think maybe you said this but I just Repeated it if you could what what are The specific like Are there specific Games today built on ton or is it too Early no I mean princess G is one that's Basically building on ton at the moment Um but hasn't launched yet on the game Is live so you can do just sort of at Gam and call the bot but the integration Of the Tom blockchain isn't done yet but That's basically part of the road map Which I think is going to be pretty Exciting but you see other early Inflammations like with not coin for Instance obviously that's a very simple Thing but that's something that's also

Utilizing um Tom blockchain and you know They've got some interesting nft voucher Systems there as well so it's early days But it's it's it's coming um and again You know the one thing that ton telegram Has is very strong distribution and in Some ways they're ideal for it not just Because of their native crypto Communities but also because you know The ethos of telegram is already fairly Decentralized right in comparison to Other ecosystems out there for instance Um so it's it's it's not likely that uh You know WhatsApp for instance right or Messenger is going to do anything of That sort at least in the near term is The Bitcoin ecosystem for gaming worth Looking at oh absolutely absolutely so We think of L1 and l2s basically like Nations right so in that sense they all Have their own culture their own Ecosystem they cross over of course um But in many ways the the native culture Is very specific and unique and you see This by the way not just with Bitcoin You see this with Solana and ethereum And sort of you know and the newer ones That have come out for instance um Whether this is like SE or you know Things like Aptos or you know the move Language or you know like this you know All sorts of new L1 l2s come out that Have their specific communities and sort Of maybe consensus designs that attract

A certain type of end user and Bitcoin Is no different you know in fact I would Argue that Bitcoin is probably one of The most hardest sort of you know Hardcore Community users out there it Also happens to be the biggest one right In terms of market cap Val so yes it Makes sense and I think if there's Anything to be said about the rise of Ordinals and making parallels of you Know nfts in the ethereum days five Years ago I think it's very similar Right in terms of the nft volume per of Monthly sales which is about $15 billion A month at the moment which isn't too Shabby um you know there are days where Bitcoin actually is the larger p p of it And typically hovers around 20 or 30% of That volume which I think is really Healthy for really what could be said is A still very young U sort of ecosystem In comparison so yes we're we're bullish And with projects like you know from the D Studio like with life beyond and Basically the Sparks Community I think They're building you know basically a Metaverse on on sorry on bitcoin I've Heard it speculated before that every Game in the future will have their own L2 every popular game to deal with just The amount of transactions but like Let's say I want to get your opinion but Let's say in by 2030 or 2040 so decades From now do you think for the l1s gaming

Will consolidate to one or two or three Or do you think it'll be Many so first of all I think it'll be Many but I don't think it'll be many uh Simp because of the fact that um ill Solness is scaling Solutions I think It'll um I think it has more to do with The cultural Community context of those Communities um because gamings Themselves when you think about the sort Of even the mediumsized games uh in in Web 2 actually have millions and Millions of daily active users right uh Or at least monthly active users and so In this sense they're already Communities of their own and if you look At some of the older sort of I guess Through G sort of web two games or web Two metaverses that are actually um sort Of have economic systems and have been Running for you know decades like second Life or Eve online they're still around They're still doing pretty well without Blockchain yeah but the user numbers are Much lower so I think second life has Maybe less than a million users right For instance but they've been around I Know what 20 odd years for instance and Continuing to sort of grow in the space So if you can do this with you know that Kind of traffic imagine what would Happen when you know you have so many Games that are actually truly economic Systems with an actual sort of world

Economy because it's Power by blockchain I think we're not going to have a Situation where it's one or two or three I think it's going to be thousands of Them that basically uh do that uh and Again because of both three they'll have Sort of these Capital opportunities and The token infrastructure I view them Kind of almost a little bit like the Quasi National currencies of those Particular metaverses which of course Can be interchanged you know whether It's through the CX or through through Dex it doesn't really matter so the Liquidity is still portable but to Manage the specifics of the economy you Know whether it's inflation based Whether it's fixed Supply whether it's Earned whether it's sold like whatever The models are are going to be reflected In those token uh sort of designs which Aren't Universal necessarily which is Why I think it's not that Straightforward to basically assume that There's going to be just three or four Um in fact that to me is like saying the World will only have three or four Cities no I don't think so right I think The world is has you know hundreds and Actually hundreds of thousands and Millions of cities for that very reason And I think um the you know the the open Met in web 3 will be function exactly The same way so we'll have many token

Ecosystems and potentially many sort of L1 L2 you know Forks spin-offs or Originals um you know for those Reasons this is a question about advice Advice you give to investors people in Gaming like for me personally I'm on I'm A producer and a judge on a of a show Called killer Wales it's like a Shark Tank of web 3 it's on Apple it's on I've Seen it okay I've seen it yes I think One of your projects Phantom galaxies if That's they were one of the winners of Our gaming episode anyway we're doing a Season two um but on that show Uh apart from evaluating these projects In real time some of the judges give Advice or just give their input there's Like a VC chair an influencer chair There's five chairs total on every Episode if like when projects come to You what advice you give them uh from an In well project side but I also want to Know when investors come to you what Advice do you give them so two different Ones right yeah so the first one um from A project standpoint typically we love To see projects that build with this Premise of impact and purpose or more Specifically to build impact with Purpose is actually what we look for um So in other words you know we want Projects to find something that Ultimately Feels greater than you know is greater

Than themselves because that's the only Way really which you're willing to go Through all the sacrifices and hard work You know like for instance how do you Survive a bare Market which you know Last year was pretty much a bare market And how do you do that when maybe your Prime motivation is money well if your Prime motivation is money then Frankly Speaking you will give up fairly easily Because there's other ways to make money More efficiently and more faster for Instance and that's tough you know for Us to back because then really it's just Kind of where the wind goes and we see This by with VCS as well it's like oh Okay um you know web three blockchain Not looking so hot so let's go AI for Instance oh blockchain is hot again Let's go back in and while you know People do that and that's okay I think That's really difficult for a Founder to Sort of switch in this manner right um But anyway so I think we we seek for Conviction so you have to have Conviction if you don't have conviction Then I think it's really hard right I Think as as a Founder you need to be Willing to sort of you know um be able To sort of sacrifice a fair amount of Time and a fair amount of you know sort Of you know sort of you whether it's Family time whether it's you know Basically wealth opportunities and so on

In order to make it happen so I give you An example for instance in gaming where Where I see this is that yes you can be A game and maybe your mission is just to Make it fun that's one thing but you Know the higher purpose really in web Through gaming is you can actually teach Financial literacy you're onboarding People in like the Philippines like what What sky MERS and pixels is not doing as Well who don't have a university Education and who don't um you know Maybe even have a high school education But they've learned something about Financial literacy they end up joining The capital class and as a result Onboarded you know millions of people From Web Two to web 3 these kind of I Guess what you would call sort of you Know um less developed Nations right and Basically provided an infrastructure Through gaming that um you know wouldn't Have been possible before right and uh And so that's a higher purpose right and So gaming is fun but then when you know The impact your building it gives you a Different kind of drive as opposed to You know well we just want to make make Money for instance right so so you know I I would sort of seek Founders to try To sort of find those various purposes Um which can be very general um but Something that you know makes you get Out of bed super excited for the

Investors I would say you know I view The spaces a little bit like early Internet and maybe we're kind of in the 2201 stage of sort of web one but in the Web3 equivalent so how do you really Sort of invest in that cycle uh and Again we believe in the shared network That are shared before but if that's the Case we think you need to invest in many Projects I don't think you can just back One I think this idea of backing the one Winner is kind of a classic zero sum Thinking approach right and so instead You back the ecosystem and even if some Of them fail which many of them probably Will you've actually just given money to The ecosystem as a kind of tax you've Helped them you know because even if They fail those people learn something And they might work for another startup That would be more successful and here's The thing about web 3 if a project even That you didn't invest in does really Really well the fact that it has a halo Effect to the rest of the industry Basically can help lift the rest of of The ecosystem kind of like a you know Rising tide lift all boats type of Approach we see this very often in world Three you know when when pixels and see Was tokens like when pixels basically Took off and then axi basically followed Gaming tokens started to become a really Hot topic again um liquidity was flowing

All over the place uh consequently uh You had many many gaming projects doing Really well as a result of that halo Effect but also because of the shared Liquidity that happens in these Network Effects so the most optimal way to Participate is not to back one project But is to back 20 or 30 or 40 of these Projects um because because you can't Necessarily um sort of you know um Predict which game will do well in the Early stages um but essentially it's Like you know I don't if you remember How Mobile gaming back in 2010 in 2011 Particularly when it first started every Game was a hit every game had had had Good downloads because we were at that Early stage of development I think we Through gaming is kind of the same um so I would I would encourage um sort of um Investors to be U much more Broad in This stage of development uh as opposed To much more sort of you know specific And and and they W up with over 450 Investments um you know I think some Investors have sort of you know bought Our shares particularly on secondaries With that thesis in mind right they're Saying you know what I don't have time To invest in 20 30 different companies Or hundreds of companies but by owning Shares in anal Brands that's the one you To do it right and so there's ways to do That in other ways as well for those who

Have an interest in doing it like like Almost like an index yeah you have such Great perspective on on crypto and Gaming crypto in general but Specifically gaming I want to encourage The audience to follow you follow Anoka The links are down below In our final 10 12 minutes I want to Zoom out a little bit this first Question uh Bitcoin having what are your Expectations as a guy that's been here Before so first of all you know I I mean I there's a lot of you know historical Theories and ideas about Bitcoin having But my view on bitcoin having is it's a Bit it's a little bit like sort of Crypto Christmas uh what I mean by that Isn't necessarily the gift that it gives Because that's I think sort of for Relative and perhaps even you know Subjective um but it's a fact that it's A tradition that everyone talks about When having is on the whole world talks About it right it's like Christmas and To me it's the reason why you know Especially in the past we kept having The narrative coming about Bitcoin Having Bitcoin having right it's almost Like don't forget us there's Bitcoin Having right coming and it's going to Change something right and whether it Has an impact on the price to be is Almost secondary because it's basically Tradition now right um and I think also

You know um you know to me actually and This is sort of a side note I think the Sustainability of sort of the mining Framework of Bitcoin can't be sustained Purely by assuming that Bitcoin is going To be worth a million dollars in the Future but an increase of course um but Rather I think it comes from all these New applications like for instance Ordinals and descriptions because they Provide you know additional Revenue Sources and and more Diversified revenue Streams for the bers to continue to Defend the network so to me you know I Think those Innovations will happen and Grow uh and and W just be based on on The price appreciation but yes my Perspective on on having really is it's A it's a great thing to talk about it Keeps keeps the story relevant it's like Christmas are you in the Michael sailor Camp in the sense that Bitcoin is going To a million it's it's fundamentally Separated itself from the store value Pack Eventually so I mean you know because of Its mechanism I would say that it is um I think it is entirely possible that it Will do that um over time and the reason Why is that I think of you know in the Future I don't think of it purely just As the differentiated store value I see It as a status symbol right so in other Words you know in the same way that nfts

Have a certain kind of St symbol because Bitcoin has basically a mathematical Scarcity uh it also means that owning One basically uh as a result will have That scarcity aspect uh I'm not a huge Fan because I don't think it's very Inclusive and as a result I think it's Entirely possible that on market value Um the remain sort of combined market Value the remaining we through Ecosystems might might be larger over Time you know at which point the Ecosystem will obviously be a much much Larger one that it is right now but that Does not prude that um you know again It's not Zero Sum right um just because The other ecosystems grow does not mean It's at the expense of Bitcoin I think It's quite the opposite because I think If you you know remember most of the Crypto people today um didn't join Because of Bitcoin right the early Generation was all about buying Bitcoin As essentially that store of value that Hopefully appreciates um but the Narrative in the last two or three years Was mostly things like nfts and gaming And really in sort of ethereum and Solana and other other tokens those People actually now that they've uh sort Of attained a little bit of wealth or You know had something they're the ones Buying Bitcoin now too right so it's the Other way right so the growth of all the

Other blockchains are actually driving People to the OG blockchains which is Basically Bitcoin because they want to Own a piece of that because it is Essentially like you know you know uh Having having um o OG Providence in Blockchain and that to me is Bitcoin Final Bitcoin question and this one's Just for fun this is what the bitcoiners Behind close doors talk about at all the Conferences but top of this cycle for For Bitcoin do you see it surpassing 120k yes I do see I do think it's Entirely possible Obviously um you know it's it's a rocky Road uh and the reason why I I think It's possible is that we're not done yet With spot ETFs you know spot ETFs are Going to come in Hong Kong probably in The UK maybe in Japan maybe in Singapore Right like why should the US have all The fun right and and so and I think you Know despite all of the let's call it Struggles the US has had uh you know Basically it's demonstrated its success And so you know every other place is Going to want to do that uh and of Course we should also expect other type Of ETFs to come out not just Bitcoin but It'll be the first one because it's the Easiest one um and so I think more Liquidity will ultimately rush into the Space as a result of more spot ETFs Launching in due course probably many of

Them you know um in the course of the Next 12 months or so two final questions I know you're a busy man you have things To do Um I I would love if this is this Doesn't have to be about crypto at all Just about life advice and success but Finish the if you would I became wealthy When I understood Blank Purpose you elaborate sorry I mean just A sentence or two even though we just Kind of went over it but yeah that's Great yes um So so to me sort of the meaning of Purpose is basically sort of an Intrinsically the deeper reason why we Do things and so you know and and and When we talk about wealth I don't Specifically only talk about material Wealth right the sort of you know uh Wealth is a form of I guess a source of Happiness of a different type right Meaning that you could be you know uh Wealthy with the safe love or wealthy With you know reputation or you know These are other forms right I think of Um wealth as a kind of social currency Which by the way you know since we're Talking tokens can be represented in Many other ways right um but but you Know that aside you know um you know we As humans were social Everything about us is social I mean

When you think of the opposite of social If you done something bad you go to Prison the sentence is going to be Isolated from society right I mean that Says something I think about the power Of social so everything is related to Social currency even when you buy a Luxury good whether it's a roox or Rolex Or a Ferrari or a birken bag or when you Buy an nft like a Bor AE or a moverse or Sandbox land for instance and you know What is it that you're seeking for it's Not necess specifically just the money Value it's a social currency implied the Reputation um around that and for some People the amount of money that you have Which is where they sometimes conflate That with the pure wealth aspect is that The amount of money you have actually Supposed to present a certain type of Status again related to social but then Once you reach a certain amount of money Actually it's no longer enough to have Just more money you want to demonstrate It or show it to amplify your social Currency essentially amplify your own Network effects which consequently comes In the form of I don't know Art House You live in car you drive whatever you Want to say right so yeah so it's it's a Big it's probably multifaceted question But uh I think when you find your Purpose then I think you'll find all Your sources of wealth if you were

Starting over today at 22 years old and You had an extra ,000 in your pocket What are practical steps or practical Things you would do to go from a Thousand to eventually 100,000 Well okay so I mean I guess there's two Ways to approach this um the way that uh I did it I'll just give you my what what I did in similar circumstances you know I obviously built um U my own business And actually when I was actually 22 I Built a business called outplay which is Basically um you know one of the Earliest uh I guess back then was you Know called um ASP but really was a Cloud computing business this is 1998 so We're talking about a long time ago but Anyway um but also I ended up becoming Uh a very prolific angel investor and I Didn't put that much money but I Basically put money in all these Companies that I thought had potential But the only reason I could do that is Because I was I was building a business In the early web one space to in other Words you can't actually really invest In sort of projects well in that era of New technology if you're not in it right If you're sort of from the outside in And just investing it's a little bit Taking a shot in the dark because you Don't maybe know enough about what's Cool or what's hip or whatever or what's Important but if you're building then

You've got inside a knowledge of you Know the inner workings we see this by The way today in web 3 right if you are A smart contract developer if you Understand how token inos systems work If you're actually you know in in the System and you're happily farming or Playing web three games you're naturally Going to be better at investing in these Type of projects right so in other words It the what I'm saying is that you Basically go build a business business Could be small in the space and you Invest in the businesses and the Companies that you understand from Building in the space right as in you Learn from it because now you have an Appreciation and I think you know um That's how we played the early cycles And in a way animoca Brands is just a Bigger version of that philosophy we're Building right and have projects like Sandbox but we're also you know probably The one of the most prolific web3 Investors in the World nice nice and um I guess Yeah Final question will you be a token 2049 I will absolutely be a token 2049 Yes uh my brother and I will be there Too hopefully we see you there we were In Singapore last year and that was an Excellent conference so I'm looking Forward to this one um but just final Thoughts for the altcoin daily Army I

Really appreciate you taking the time With us today so thank you uh thank you For for sort of having me you know if I Can share one other thing you know for Your audience here is that you know Building in with three um actually Serves broadly even if you're not aware Of it higher purpose right and I think The higher purpose is that uh you're Basically helping shape a new kind of Capitalism you know creating more Financial inclusivity through financial Literacy and basically making most of The world Capital owners which are not Today right most of the world are still In the labor economy they don't own Anything but we're supposed to be Building a capital Society but really It's only benefited you know the one Percenti because they're the only ones Who get to own that Capital but in web 3 Right even if you just own a few tokens In your favorite blockchain you Basically become a stakeholder which Means you're Capital own so to me this Is a movement about making everyone a Stakeholder in this future you know Asset class uh and in this sort of you Know future system which I think is Basically you know the future of the Internet uh and so whatever you doing Whatever you're building however you're Trading you're all contributing to Basically helping build that future so

You know you know I I do want to take This opportunity to thank your audience For their contribution and continued Contributions in that space

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