Steve Kaczynski on why NFT brand building could expand in 2024 | Chain Reaction Podcast

Hi everyone it's Jacqueline melanic Welcome to chain reaction a show that Unpacks and Dives deep into the latest Trends drama and news breaking things Down block by block for the crypto Curious this year we're doing monthly Series diving into different topics and Themes in crypto and to start things off This month we're focusing on nfts I'm Interviewing some of the biggest nft Players and Founders about how they've Weathered the booms and bus in the Sector what they're focused on and what Could be next for the industry hope you Enjoy today's guest is Steve kazinski Co-author of the book The everything Token and co-host of a web 3 morning Show called coffee with Captain he also Co-authored the first Harvard Business Review article about nfts and outside of That he consults with agencies and Brands about building their web three Strategies including his role with Starbucks where he's a community lead For its nft focused loyal loyalty Program Starbucks Odyssey before getting Into the web 3 world Steve worked in Communications and marketing roles at Playes for over 15 years and we're Excited to have him on so Steve welcome To the show thanks for having me really Excited to be on here and and as we were Saying even before it's good to talk Face to face and actually kind of see

You and have this conversation yeah I'm Glad to know you're a real person and Not just a board ape nft love that to Start can you tell us about one of the Most interesting people you've met in The past 12 months in crypto and what Did you learn from them yeah I mean it's Funny like within the cryptocurrency Industry I think there's somebody that Is one of the sort of original board ape People from the community named Josh on And he was a sort of crypto news Reporter prior to being in web 3 now he Does a Consulting agency called Boardroom Ventures and Josh is one of The most interesting people in the sense That he will do things with zero Personal Agenda to himself and I would Credit him as one of the people who Truly onboarded me into this world I've Always been a tech nerd who's super Interested in Tech since you know at I'm 40 years old now I was building websites When I was in Middle School in sixth and Seventh grade and having teachers tell Me you know this is a cool hobby but This isn't the future this is the Internet it's just a little hobby thing So coming in here and being able to ask Any silly question early on in you know Late 2020 early 2021 and having Josh be One of those people who gave me those Answers I really learned a couple of Things from him one obviously the ins

And outs of of web 3 and nfts and how They work but I think even more than That I think I learned the ethos of the Crypto World which is the way that you Can sort of help each other no matter Who you are the way that we could create A bond in a relationship without ever Meeting in person and a great friendship And so I think he taught me a lot of Those things about how I should lead by Example the way he does and I try to do That as well and as well as just the ins And outs of the blockchain yeah I feel That I have like internet friends and It's so weird when I meet them in person Or even over Zoom like this it's a Different feeling and like people in Other Industries don't really get that But what made made you so interested in Nfts specifically was it the community Aspect or did you just kind of see one Of the collections you're like hey I Like that artwork so I actually my poor Team that was working for me at at the Time I was kind of starting the Recruitment marketing department at Progressive and my poor team had to Watch me when I get into crypto actually Whiteboard why I thought smart contracts On the ethereum blockchain were super Interesting this is 2017 2018 oh wow Yeah I always found the concept really Interesting but nobody really put it Into practice and so I actually

Discovered the NBA top shots first in You know again like early 2021 I started Poking around and when I looked up what It was cuz I was like this is Interesting I can sort of buy and sell It there's a market there's serial Numbers it's like sports cards and I Love Collectibles if people are watching On Zoom you can see my background I love Collectibles but I looked into it and It's like wait this is built on a smart Contract because I didn't know what an Nft was and I read it and it's talking About these businesses built on Blockchains and I thought wow like this This is a really interesting concept That I've been you know super engaged With for over 3 years and seeing it come To fruition was a really cool thing to Sort of notice and so at that point I Learned everything I could and Dove all In I'm a very passionate person when it Comes to my hobbies like I'm one of Those people who goes 0 to 100 very Quickly so I just started soaking in Everything I could and you know nine Months later co-authored the first Harvard Business review article about Nft so learned enough to kind of Understand how and why they create value Yeah and how has that passion kind of Evolved over time is it still a hobby to You it doesn't seem like it it seems Like it's a full-time job now it's

Multiple full-time jobs now at this Point actually it's um yeah it's Full-time helping Starbucks like you Said with their Community lead it's Hosting that show which is just a Passion cuz for two hours and this is What's cool is that just to back up for A second we talk about the concept of Like what's a metaverse and everybody Has these big overarching views of it Like to me what I do every morning at 8:00 a.m. until 10: is a metaverse we All sit there behind pfps with people I Never would have otherwise met and we Trade ideas we trade information and it Became more of a passion and actually Was officially full-time as of the Beginning of 2022 but it's that it's Starbucks it's the book and it's always Looking for the next sort of Consulting Thing to do because it really is that Idea of chasing down my passion and it's Like I can go through a day where I Could work 13 hours and I look up and I I look around and I say I still want to Do things cuz I'm still passionate and I Think that's how you know kind of you're Where you're supposed to be in life yeah I love that honestly that's me at crypto Conferences it's like you get up at 7:00 And you're still out at work events or Whatever you want to call it till like 2: a.m. and you're just like enjoying it Because that's what you love to do

That's how I feel at least you brought Up the Harvard Business review article And for those who don't know can you Kind of just explain us like what it was That you wrote about nfts what inclined You to write it and then what was the Feedback like so the funny part about The front end to that is what you just Said about crypto conferences actually Applies to that so my co-author actually Scott commoners he is a Harvard Business School professor as well as an a16z Research partner he sent me a Twitter DM Because you talk about nature Scott and I just wrote this book we've never met In person we've only met over zoom and We've only had conversations so that's Web 3 and a nutshell we met in a Twitter Space and likewise like he sent me a DM Because he said look I just got the okay To write the first Harvard Business Review article about nfts but it was the Night before nft NYC in 2021 he knew I Was going there I was meeting all these Friends so the story you told earlier About crypto conferences I was up going To these things all day and then at Night I was getting back to my room Sometimes at 3:00 in the morning and Editing this Harvard Business review Article that had to be done that week so It's really a microcosm but you know the Reason we wanted to write it is because I think the industry gets somewhat over

Financialized at times and don't get me Wrong there are certainly Financial Aspects that exist in nfts but one of The things we wrote is like we would Have people saying like so why is a Picture of a monkey worth so much money Or why is that people everyday is worth So much money and we realized there was An opportunity to tell the story of Exactly the title of the article how Nfts create value we knew the reception In web 3 would be great because it's Sort of a legitimizing of this Technology right to some degree and when I was at Progressive and we would do a Training we would print out Harvard Business Review articles to talk about And discuss and and trade ideas and so The fact that it was an hbr we knew web 3 would like it what was crazy is we got Such a great reception outside of web 3 And we had people saying you know well I Want to learn more and and can we dive More on this topic and while we were Doing some Consulting concurrently Scott And I would find ourselves getting the Same exact questions like people saying But isn't crypto a scam which you know Is or you know how are things infallible Proof of technology and it can be and And we actually address that's the true Of any industry but yeah sorry go ahead Oh no no it it so true is and and it's Funny you say that because one of the

Reasons we we dovetailed into the book Was because we were getting so many Questions we realized the only way to Scale this cuz to my knowledge there's No actual way to clone ourselves yet so We thought hey let's let's write a book Or let's let's go and and kind of pitch A book to penguin publishing and and to Your point about the scam thing I mean We took those and we said you know page Nine I think it is has a subhead that Says something to the effect of but wait Isn't cryptocurrency a scam and you know Aren't nfts tied to cryptocurrency and We we want to address those because we Don't want to dismiss the fact to going Back to your original question of the Article that on its face the idea that Yugal laabs a company that got you know Valued at4 billion Selling pictures of cartoon monkeys Sounds ridiculous we get that and so we Want to acknowledge that readers aren't Crazy for thinking that but there is More to it and we want people to know The why so we can help really push the Technology forward to better the world In general I'm glad you brought up that Point of like Ridiculousness because That is something that people always say To me and like earlier this week or last Week I saw that one of those Rock nfts Was sold for like $700,000 and like Listen if I had that money I don't think

I would buy it but power to whoever did And the justification for it by like the Milk Road newsletter writers was that This is like a very small collection People love this nft artist etc etc like Maybe someone finds meaning in it and it Might be ridiculous to some people but Then it's like I know do you know on the Back of cars where they have like the Baby on board stickers those are worth Like millions and millions of dollars The Creator who made that and it's just A sticker but the point here is is that Like even if we don't see the value in It someone else does and I'm glad you Brought up your book too the everything Token because you talk about nfts in a Way that makes them tangible and you Dive into how they'll transform the World you and Scott and without giving Like too much away because I know you Want people to get the book can you give Us like one of the ways you see them Changing Society my publisher would love You because um specifically because I Have made the point of like Scott and I Are probably the worst salesman in the Sense that we just want to get the ideas Out there in people's hands and so we Sometimes go overboard and basically you Know detail sing the book but you know I'll give you a couple interesting ones That are on different ends of the Spectrum I think on one end you have

Something like AI right now with people Being very worried about deep fakes and Things like that but in a world of Tokenized authenticity where I have a Personal token tied to something I Release you could authentically see if It's a deep fake or if it's something I Officially release so I think stuff like That on a high level is very interesting Especially as we go into the future but Then it's like things like ticketing Like every day when you go to a game you Know you go to a a baseball game a Football game a soccer game you bring Your ticket you scan a QR code probably On a piece of paper and you throw it Away but because nfts provide infallible Proof of digital ownership that ticket Can become a brand building asset that Is a living breathing and not just a Game I mean if Lin Manuel Miranda wanted To say I want to give everybody who went To the heights before Hamilton was big a Reward for early supporting me he could Do that through the blockchain or a Local restaurant that is next to a Stadium could say anyone who has the Nfts tickets that proves their a season Ticket holder you know not just you're Wearing a shirt from outside and you get A deal or not just you tell us you're a Season ticket holder and show us a Screenshot you actually can authenticate Someone's a season ticket holder they

Could say we're the official Bar and Restaurant of season ticket holders and You can get you know certain free food Or certain discounts on drinks and or The team can say if everybody wants to Claim a free sweatshirt who went to Every home game this year you know we Can build that on top of it because nfts Aren't just digital proof of ownership They actually are aaof where you can Embed in things versus like I can prove I own my house through the deed and you Know through the the registry right but Like you can't really program utility on Top of that very easily whereas the Blockchain makes that extremely elegant So you know the tickets is a microcosm For several Industries but I think the Deep fake thing is a good example of Technology that even as we were writing The book initially we never thought About and as it becomes more of a Problem we realize oh like web 3 and Nfts can solve for this in a way that we Couldn't before right and I'm I'm glad You brought that up too because I think A lot of the conversation around nfts is About changing the world with rewards And loyalties and I see the value in That as well like my sister bought the Dominic anel nft she's never seen an nft In her life but she apparently loves Cronuts and this was years ago and she Had no idea how to do it so I showed her

How to do it we spent like a bajillion Dollars on eth gas fees and she was like Why is it costing so much money and I Was like yeah I know this sucks and like Things have moved on since then but Aside from rewards which we kind of just Talked about what other their core use Cases for nfts do you think will be the Most prominent this year and then going Forward there's a couple different ways This year as we look into it I think We're going to see a lot of Community Based brand building to your point Because I think while Starbucks Odyssey Is an example is that you know I I work With as a community lead while yes the Actual rewards they're giving out are Sort of nfts although they don't call Them nfts they're stamps my you know 68-year-old mother has no problem Navigating them right like that's that's Something she can use but what's really Interesting and I believe it was the it Was either the CMO or CF of Starbucks I Can't remember who when they dropped the Program said you know we're creating a Third place everywhere we're able to Help people find their tribe who are Starbucks fans and and I've seen that Right I've seen that with people who Live in California in the Starbucks Odyssey Community are really good Friends with people in Chicago and they Have met they've met up in real life at

Times and this never would have happened If not for web 3 and I think the brand Anchors to sort of gated areas is Something we'll see this year I think Beyond what I'm excited to see is as the Pcks and shovels get built out cuz right Now I mean I mentioned like I love the Internet in middle school but back then It was like the technology wasn't great If my sister got a phone call they' kick Me offline because it was through the Phone line if I had one line of code off It made the entire website code and now You and I could spin up a website Tomorrow with a third-party you know Whether it's Squarespace or any other One right and what I look forward to is Those out-of-the-box Solutions being Built I think that's something we'll see People working on so that a local Business not just a Starbucks or a Nike Can say hey we want to spin up an nft Loyalty program here's the outof the-box Solution I think it starts though with What I call third party utility when I Mentioned a bar using a ticket as a Asset that they could anchor I think That's where it'll be interesting you Know there there's an example we use in The book which is is one I would say and Again it's a big company but a local Company could do this potentially where You know Hot Pockets targets Gamers I Used to work at Nestle hot pockets not

Surprisingly looks for gamers and so you Know if they're trying to reach that Target audience right now they do a Large sponsorship with NRG a major Gaming company but there's a world where Hot Pockets can say if you bought the Latest fortnite skin connect that wallet To our site and we'll give you a 20% Discount now the purchaser is Happy the Eater is happy they get a discount they In the ecosystem and Hot Pockets can Tell beyond the shadow of a doubt this Person isn't just a gamer they're an Active gamer who is participating and Willing to spend disposable income on Sort of these third party things so I Think that third party utility is where We'll start to see the initial pick and Shovels where local businesses and Others can take advantage of that okay I Like that Steve we're going to take a Quick break before we get into the rapid Fire Segment and we are back now is time for Our rapid fire segment where I will ask Steve some quick questions and hopefully He gives us some quick responses to Start Steve not Financial advice we got To throw that out there but what is one Nft project you're watching right now And considering buying I'm considering Buying more cuz I have a lot of stuff More Doodles because I just think their Brand Partnerships and the way they're

Leaning into them are really interesting And the fact that their Crocs sold 60% To non Doodles holders the fact that Camp their integration at the largest Opening in Camp history which has done Integrations with Disney and Nike the Fact they're working with G-Shock which Work with forel and Kim Kardashian just Bought a major G-Shock watch those are Interesting so Doodles is super Interesting to me right now yeah I think Doodles are adorable they have very good Brand recognition I think in the crypto Space 100% what is your favorite nft in Your collection ooh great question I Mean I have to say my boor AP yach Club Right now only because I mean it it I it Changed my life um I I could have gone a Little bit like cornier because there's Some other ones from art blocks that Mean a lot to me but like I think for me It changed my life and it represents the Beginning of my journey that got me to Where I am and I I wouldn't be where I Am now writing books and on this podcast If it weren't for me buying that weird Jpeg of a monkey that got people Questioning me way back in May 2021 so You bought it when it first came out I Bought it on secondary I actually bought A VF friend before I bought a board ape And I was saving for it almost wasn't Able to get a board ape and then their Emo tweets you can find where I was

Saying I'm never going to own one and Then the floor came in a little bit and I bought it for like3 eth which was the Equivalent of $1,000 which will get a Lot of people in your friends group and Your parents saying you spent $1,000 on What but um now they get it now it's Paid off Yeah okay on that note what is the most Expensive nft you've bought oh wow it Was a trade and I traded for a moonbird Back when they were you know significant I don't even know what the price of them Was they were like close to all-time Highs and I traded all sorts of good Stuff for them so it would have been the Moonbird which a lot of people are like Oh no it's like I don't regret it I've Had great experiences relationship with The team and I love that Community okay Let's say you own an nft which we know You own many would you rather it has a Strong community or a high floor price Community a million times over that's The value to me that's always been the Value to people are the alpha H I like That I think that's what matters more But some people are just money driven Which I get too if you're putting in That much aside from your book what's Your favorite crypto book uh read right Own I mean it's not totally a crypto Book but it's by Chris Dixon who Actually he wrote a blur book him on oh

That's awesome and I'm grateful he wrote One of the blurbs so on the back of our Book we have blurbs from like Gary Vaynerchuk Chris Dixon a couple nob Prize winners Adam bran Jeff Charney a Couple others but like read WR own I Think is just such a great thought Leadership level set on what the next Generation of this internet is and like I bought it and like ripped through it In like a day yeah we had Chris Dixon on And then we also had Gary ve on a little While back so hopefully our listeners You know are getting the hang of this Now um with that said where do you think Is the best place to start to get Involved in the nft space like if you Had to send one person doesn't have any Crypto knowledge they want to get in Where would you send This is going to sound very like shilly But I would say pick up Chris Dixon's Book read that first then pick up our Book and read that one and I only say That because or listen to audio or Whatever because it is overwhelming like There are tremendous amount I'm so Grateful for the resources we have on Crypto and nft Twitter right now because Now there's established Brands and People who are having those Conversations but to me like those books Read WR own will tell you about the History of the internet and why it

Matters and then our book will tell you Sort of a manual of like what what you Should do and how you can get involved In any way that you see fit okay I like That and I know you mentioned you have a Board ape nft we are now out of the Rapid fires you could give me longer Responses if you feel inclined which is One of the most well-known nfts out There even among like mainstream Audiences you know when people talk About nfts whether negative or positive They usually bring up board apes and Earlier this month you tweeted that you Find 2024 to be a big year for the Project I'm curious why do you think This year is more significant maybe than The others and how can the board ape Yacht Community keep that momentum alive That they had during the last bull Market yeah great question I think they Are a growing startup right now that is Going through the growing pains that any Major business would be in their way and It's crazy because they're in year three And most companies like I mean if you Looked at Uber in year three you might Be like this company's a rug right like If you were actually like following it Piece by piece but they were able to Slowly roll out Bape and yugul Labs has The disadvantage of and the advantage at The same time of building in public in Front of everybody so the reason I think

2024 is a major year for them is that The thing that got the board apat Club Really well recognized early on was it Was the community and it was the Desirability of that networking group Like when I went into the board apat Club group I've never been in anything Remotely like it where there's people Who are you know entrepreneurs and Jeopardy champions and I mean Steph Curry in his bio Steph Curry one of the Best players in NBA history says ba YC In his bio so being in this club is Really valuable what I think has Happened over the past 18 months is They've been trying to grow into that Valuation through gaming and they've Brought in tremendous resources to do That Executives with extreme experience Across the gaming sector but I think What they didn't realize is they Inadvertently leaned a little bit away From the community aspect so to me I Think the community is the value and it Doesn't take a lot to get them on track And be your beta testers and your people Who will really help you kind of Drive The brand forward so for me what they Need to do this year is continue to lean Into the community they have a whole Sort of entrepreneurial sector basically Called made by Apes for people who have AP based businesses my book was 333 so That tells you how many already have

Registered let alone now I think they're Up to like 400 so I think highlighting Those because they have the opportunity To continue to push towards that Decentralized marketing arm that got People so excited about them in the First place and to me that's where they Could spend a lot of time and energy While building out the gaming so that That's why that gets big and that's what I think they need to do I think it was Last year maybe I'm like losing track of Time but dookie Dash came out which was For those who don't know it was the Bor A focused game that was for Bard ape Holders right and uh you could play the Game and kind of win rewards and stuff How do you think that was perceived and Do you think something like that would Be something that would make sense now Too or should they explore like other Avenues so I think it does make sense so I think there's a couple things going on With them where they're building out This incredibly ambitious sort of Metaverse world called other side and That world is going to be timec Consuming like to give you know an Example on games I mean I don't know When the last GTA Grand Theft Auto game Came out it was probably I don't know Over a decade ago and they're just now Teasing a new one right and that's how Game development can be so doing that

Plus doing on novel technology can be Very difficult if they want to execute It well and change the Paradigm so along The way they need to have these Experiences that keep people excited I Think dooky Dash and the roll out of Dooky Dash is one of those things that Makes a lot of sense because because it Gives you something competitive Something to Rally around as a community People trade strategies they spin up Private groups and you can almost in a Way Foster the community and keep them Happy along the way and by the way it's Not like it's a bad thing for them I Don't remember the exact numberers so so Don't quote me on these but they made a Few million dollars alone in people just Spending money on boosts in the game you Know very similar to how you would see People using like a candy crush or Whatever in a very short period of time They made millions of dollars on Secondary royalty In that in selling those assets that Were involved with the game so they can Actually create a solid business profit Center running the game I would think While also keeping their holders and People who are playing the game very Happy so to me and I know outside of Holders they opening up as well I think It's a smart play and the last thing I'll say on it is it looks like they're

Working on integrating like I could Bring my ape into dooky Dash which ties Into that little level of identity as Silly as it is if you can bring the Thing that you travel across digital Spaces with into your own video game and Then you can bring it into another Digital space and another digital space You feel that tighter connection with it So I think them doing that is a smart Play yeah I like that and I think we Talked about web 3 gaming in the past on This show and that's a really good way To get people to use Andor buy nfts Without even really thinking about the Fact that they're like deep within the Crypto space they're not even deep in it But like they're getting involved I Should say and before we were talking About Community asked you during rapid Fire and during the board ape questions You brought that up too as your role as The community lead with the Starbucks Loyalty prr program what has that been Like from you know Inception of you Getting into it to now I feel like when The Odyssey program first launched there Was so much coverage on it so much talk About it and since then like I haven't Really seen an update from Starbucks so I'm curious what do you know that we Don't know or how have things been going Okay oh my God so awesome first of all Like from a personal perspective like

Awesome because I get to bring the web 3 Knowledge and I get to bring the Community building knowledge but I get To learn from the best loyalty people in The world and like there are times when Say something where they'll bring up Something and I'll be like why don't we Do it this way and they'll be like Because of this and I'm like oh my God That's really smart that's why you're Good at this and so I think that's been Good from a personal perspective from a Program perspective totally public Knowledge to see like you can see based On participation last year they issued This stamp again one of the nfts at the End of the year and to get at least this Stamp you had to be at least level one In the program they had level one 2 3 Four and five and it was almost like Think of it almost like a flight like a Rewards program from you carry your Status if you're silver one year you're Silver the next year when you earn it Right so the people who got the stamp at Level one got a certain amount of points To kick off their next year and level Five they got more points meaning they Were more participatory at least level One people at at least level one there Were 58,000 plus stamps issued meaning That they had over 58,000 active Participants and I can promise you those Aren't mostly or all web three native

People right without even seeing the Numbers because it's not just web3 People who are participating So to that End I think what they're doing is is Really smart and resonating with people And getting them to engage with the Brand in a way that they otherwise Haven't before and my job really is I Need to be the cruise director right Like I need to be the guy if anybody's Ever been on a cruise and there's the Guy who like gets on before they do a Show and gets everyone excited like That's sort of my job it's how do we Communicate to everybody to get them Really excited bring in people like like I got to interview the creator of the Pumpkin spice latte like that's a big Deal to me I'm sorry like that's Co I Didn't even know there was a creator for That yeah that's sick it was like a kind Of a crew and actually he told us in the Discord I I should I don't know if I Should share this out but he told us in Our private you know token gated Interview like they were trying all These different flavors he talked about The other ones they tried they actually Mash pumpkin pie in a coffee at first to Try it which sounds like something I do Thanksgiving after starting with wine at Like 9:00 in the morning or something Right it's like let's get the pumpkin Pie and the coffee but like he talked

About like that so people like that or Like the person who designed the holiday Cups this year which are a huge iconic Thing in Starbucks so I'm able to kind Of help people deepen the relationship With Starbucks brand while my own I mean I'm a Starbucks guy I was before web 3 I'll be long after I work with them if I Ever stop and so to me it's a great Opportunity to do that and just Translate that love that people have and Realize that when there's groups of 880,000 people belonging to a group in Service of finding cold cup Starbucks Issues and trading rare ones and showing Collections it sounds like nft people But with like physical cups right it's Like you know that this is a passionate Group and I get to help stoke the Flames Of that awesome fandom so there's tier One and there's over 50,000 people in That how many te are there and people Involved in the Starbucks Odyssey Program I don't know the exact numbers I Don't know if it's publicly available to Be actually precise and honest but the 58,000 represents the active number so Like I don't know how many were on each Tier you could actually find those Numbers if you looked it's a relatively Exclusive group to tier five cuz that Meant not only did you participate but You bought a decent amount in secondary I mean the other thing they did that was

Pretty cool this year and I don't expect This is naturally the future thing to Reward their early adopters but kind of Went under the radar in December they Announced that in the next I believe Month they're actually sending 40 people To Costa Rica to go to their coffee Farm Down there uh their top 20 participants Based on their score they had were Surprised and they're allowed to bring a Plus one guest to go travel to Costa Rica and and go to their coffee Farm Down there and learn more about Starbucks and kind of meet each other And Foster that Community that's on top Of some different like smaller sort of Inperson meetups they've done at like Various Starbucks roasies but I think They're providing a lot of utility and Doing it well and anytime I see people On Faceook Facebook who don't know what An nft is so behind me if people are Seeing there's a cup that's bright Orange there was a limited number of These things issued for the PSL pumpkin Spice latte's 20th anniversary which Happened last year and so one of the Things that happened was when you finish This pumpkin maze as part of Odyssey They said surprise give us your address We're shipping you a free cup and there Are limited number of them it has a Little PSL charm on it I went on Facebook and people in leaf rakers and

Cup Hunters which are a couple Starbucks Groups writing in all caps run to Odyssey right this is who don't know What an nft is saying run to go Participate in web 3 so that tells me That like Starbucks is on to something And doing it right mhm when you're Looking forward to other aspects of the Odyssey loyalty program I should say What is it that the community wants more Of or what do they not really care about Like both sides of the spectrum oh That's a good question this is what's so Interesting they want more access to the Brand in various ways which is the Ultimate sign of fandom where Respectfully to web 3 people the Traditional web 3 person might come to Me in the Starbucks Odyssey Discord and Say what are you doing to add more Utility to this stamp right that we Issued last year which is never the Point it's a loyalty reward the market Decides what they're worth you have the Choice to hold it and get individual Specialized Starbucks rewards or sell it To somebody who wants that as a Collectible or whatever that's not a Direction at least at the moment Starbucks has gone but what they do want The traditional Starbucks fan I think The majority of people is the Opportunity to do a focus group with the Brand and actually talk to people who

Work at Starbucks that's scen as utility The opportunity to purchase more things In fact we have these benefit selections Where people have to choose between like A hoodie and a backpack and they say can I buy the hoodie and you know it's one Of those things I think as a brand you Never quite think like oh people are Going to want to buy even more of these Things we're giving as rewards and so Access to buy access to the brand access To learn more in fact somebody even said Recently hey when we did an event-based Thing around the history of the PSL we Did a journey around that that was so Fun what's another event-based thing Based on on something from the history Of Starbucks that we could bring Together so generally speaking like it's Like almost they want more access to the Brand in general and I think what a lot Of the community I would say doesn't Push as hard on which is kind of Surprising is necessarily overly Financialization of stamps right which Is something Starbucks isn't doing and And hasn't actively done for obvious Reasons but that's something that I Think is a differentiator between say You know the small corner of the Internet that is web 3 Twitter for Example or fans of a large that if you Think about it like if you were a huge Taylor Swift fan and they were like hey

As a reward for this thing you hold you Can buy tickets to the concert without Having to worry about getting botted Right up front and you can buy a special Limited edition t-shirt you'd be like That's a benefit so it makes sense that People get excited about that but it's Almost like a surprise that access and Information can be major utility for People yeah I'm not a huge tayor Swift Fan Steve but I do get it um I go to Grateful Dead concerts I guess dead and Co and they kind of discontinue that Last year but one of the things that They had you do when you go or the Option is like you can go to different Stands you sign up for a bunch of Different voting things and then you get Like a pin and you only get that pin at The concert that they're doing annually So like I have a handful of these pins But people will like buy these off you For so much more than what you got for Basically for free with the ticket of Course so I see the value there as well And I'm curious on the front of the Secondary Market is that a big thing for Starbucks Odyssey or no because these People are more in it for the brand than Like the monetary gain it's certainly There that's what's cool about it you Know a lot of Brands and like by the way I think do swoosh is doing a tremendous Job and Seth Thomas is a friend of mine

The director of tokenomics there with Nike but you know they opened up and Didn't initially have a market I think One thing Starbucks actually did a Really good job with was they vetted out And I know Forum 3 who I you know Contract with to work with Starbucks and There is worth noting one of their Co-founders Adam brotman was the former Chief digital officer of Starbucks who Helped architect Mob guy knows or about that Tech but They vetted partners and found Nifty Gateway to use them as a custodial Option thinking you know the average Person needs to be able to approach this Number one and number two having the Ability to buy and sell and truly own Your loyalty is a New Concept it makes It less one way so while not all the Community members engage in buying and Selling or actually most of them engage More in buying than selling myself Included as a fan of the brand but I Think for a lot of people having that Optionality is so important to sort of The ethos of the program regardless of How often it's used and it is used Relatively often I don't have the Numbers off hand but you can see some Pretty high volumes in secondary markets Especially in some of the more fun Generative stamps that they've done like The the Genera of their Sirens that they

Have the mermaid that people see from Starbucks and they've done pretty well There too but I think it's almost as Important because I think as they build Out the program people need to have that Option to have that web three Interaction of owning your loyalty and Making that decision with yourself self Custody when it comes to Consulting with Agencies and Brands outside of web 3 Like web 2 companies Etc what is the Number one thing you hone in on when Talking with them that you're really Trying to drive that point across I try To get them to see it sounds very high Level but I want them to understand what An nft is and why it matters because Even if they're talking to me they might Like a lot of people have a preconceived Notion that they are expensive monkey Pictures on the internet and they can be They and and like that's a good point And they got a point there but there's Other aspects of course right they Certainly can be and I I know that as Well as anybody else and it's like but I Want them to understand there's an Analogy that my friend Adam Hollander Uses a lot who I really like that he Says imagine you go to a museum and you See a beautiful painting on the wall you Can take a picture of that painting but It's not worth any money you can get a Print in the gift shop but it's not

Worth any money the picture on the wall Is worth money because the museum owns It it's the original and they can prove Both of those things and up until recent You couldn't do that with digital items And so I think you kind of explain that To them and people say but I can still Save the picture and it's like right but I could make my pfp on Twitter or Instagram a picture of Shaquille O'Neal That doesn't mean I'm going to collect His checks from the general or go to the Basketball Hall of Fame ceremony and so Once you start explaining this to people That way you can then meet them where There are so it's if it's a insurance Company maybe I explain the Predictive Analytics against being able to have Access to someone's wallet and the Things they own and helping them Understand their customer better if it's A medical company maybe I explained Medical records and how you can actually You know make that in a way that is more Beneficial to Consumers as well and if It's a CBG company maybe I go Starbucks Odyssey but I think there's so many ways To meet people where they are and you Know if it's an artist I can meet them With art so I think the goal is like Start at the top to explain to them what An nft is be ready to answer their Questions and and that's actually it's Funny like web 3 people say like what's

At least one value I can get from the Book I'm like we have all the Explanations you can tell people outside Of web 3 trust me our editor was non Web3 native but it's to try to meet them Where they are and say like we talked About before it's not ridiculous to Think this whole thing sounds crazy but It's not crazy and it's interesting and If it's a $40 billion industry at least At its early stages you may want to be Aware of what's going on there I love That Steve on that note can you leave us With a piece of advice or something that You've carried with you throughout your Career in the web 3 space man I think my Biggest piece of advice is being a Lifelong learner is like the most Important thing you can do and I've Always been someone who's intellect Actually curious but I think in this World I I mentioned learning about a $40 Billion industry and my co-author Scott Said something great where he was asked A question hey what are your bosses at Harvard think about the fact that in 2021 you're teaching about nfts when a Lot of the headlines say that these Things are a big scam and his answer was Sort of what I said earlier which is if There's a $40 billion industry our Professors and our students should know About it regardless of how it's Operating and I think for me that's the

One thing I would say is that if you are Outside of web 3 inside web 3 be a Lifelong learner because because you may If you're not in web 3 pick up our book Read it listen to it it's a 5 hour Listen or something like that so it's Not a long listen and say you know what These aren't for my business right now Or I'm going to wait on this but at Least know and understand because the Last thing you want to do is be Blockbuster when Netflix comes along Because those things can get ugly real Quick for a business if you're not ready I love that analogy thank you so much For coming on the show today Steve Thanks for having me I very much Appreciate It We'll be back next week with Conversations around what's going on in The wild world of web 3 with top players In the crypto ecosystem you can keep up With us on Spotify Apple music or your Favorite pod platform And subscribe to Our companion newsletter also called Chain Reaction links to the newsletter And stories we talked about can be found In our show notes and be sure to follow Us at chain reaction on Twitter chain Reaction is hosted by myself Jaclyn Melanic and produced by Maggie stamitz With assistant from Yad karney and edit By Kell Bryce Durban is our illustrator

And Henry pette manages Tech crunch Audio products thanks for listening in See you next Time