Plaid’s Zach Perret Opens up on Open Banking

Thank you [Music] I think I'm working here great based on The miking situation Hello That's not my water I should okay we Have a luxurious half an hour here hi Everybody thanks for coming Um and thank you so much so I was going To start off with a little bit of a Surprise okay which I hope you don't Mind but so this is kind of an amazing Thing Zach started he basically launched Vlad At a hackathon at disrupt it was our First publicity that we ever got it was The first time and I blind signed a TechCrunch so much that they didn't even Realize you didn't exist already they Talked about Rambler and they just sort Of slip in the Plaid API yeah it's Amazing so basically you know as if it Existed and so much so that I was like What wait a minute I was reading back on It and thinking I guess we've covered Them before or something nope nothing That was actually the first mention of It exactly so I I thought it'd be right For me uh can you guys put the slide up Please it's so cute it's you and your Two co-founders are we gonna get it up Can we get it up oh there it is it's Over there where is it oh and we can't See it all right there they are

Launching oh my gosh my hair was a lot Shorter back oh there we are we can see It down here there we go look at you Guys so you're there with with William And uh so this is my co-founder William On the right of the photo and the person In the middle is uh Michael Kelly yeah He was our Um he's actually joined us as an intern Uh and I think he was actually an intern That summer when we when we did the Hackathon he wasn't a co-founder yeah in That picture no but then he was with us For a really long time an amazing leader And yeah yeah It's a that they yeah I think it's so Adorable okay you guys can you guys can Put it down now thank you very much Thank you this this actually um no keep It up We don't need the photo but yeah um it Was interesting we Um we'd known what we were building a Plaid for a while and we'd kind of Created this this API and Um you know we've been talking to some People about using it but the reality is No one knew what it was or how it worked And the concept of building something in Financial services Um was pretty foreign to most people Um you know this was the time this was Um you know I guess it was 2013 yeah That we did the hackathon

Um and in 2013 the the VC Zeitgeist was Don't invest in financial services don't Invest in fintech Um that market is not going to go Anywhere it's too regulated the banks Are going to do everything there's too Many big incumbents um you know it's not Going to grow and so we built this uh Fintech API believing that you know the VC Zeitgeist was a little off yeah Um and yet we still couldn't we had no Publicity we had never gotten anyone to Build uh more than kind of one or two Small projects on it so we went to the To the Disturbed hackathon and uh you Guys travel you were in New York at the Time that was in New York I think wasn't It yeah so we actually started the Company in New York okay so we were Still living in New York but we are in The middle of moving to San Francisco Right okay so that's where you had to be At that time exactly well there was no Way to start a company especially like That anywhere that's very true so anyway So we go to hackathon Um and uh kind of an amazing experience We ended up building a product from zero To one that was called Rambler Um everyone thought that Rambler was Like going to be a company and something That we're gonna go start but we always Were saying hey you know we're wearing The plaid shirt we said hey we're

Building a thing on the Plaid API can I Tell you what the API is and during that Day I walked around and talked to I Think every engineer in the room Um to tell them hey this is what pled Does this is where we're going Um that you should maybe use plaid in Your product and most of them were kind Of like hey go away leave me alone I'm You know unless you have pizza I don't Want to talk to you you're not from Foursquare we don't care yeah exactly This is when Foursquare had the the best API that has happened Um and it worked though we got a lot of Attention we got some new customers out Of it um and I feel like when you're Early you just have to do those Scrappy Marketing things that was incredible so Rambler was never meant to be the Product no no Rambler was a product that We built Um on the Plaid API as a demo app as a Demo exactly and the coolest thing was It was a um the magnifying glass that Just moved around this map as you're Spending money at different places yeah You actually see all the places that you Went and spent time and it was like this Walk down memory lane for people but we Came up with the idea I think the night Before we got there the morning the Hackathon started writing code and 24 Hours later we had it incredible and

It's I I don't know what that says about TechCrunch that a you won the hackathon On Rambler not on plaid Um B one of our reporters whose name I Will not mention buddy now works for the Washington Post Um I wrote this whole story as if he Completely was on board with what with Plaid API was I had no idea it's so Funny We snuck it in I love it he just He just like faked it till he made it Um so yeah I very amazing and then of Course it wasn't too long after that it Was like the end of that year you raised Your first one your funding Um yeah so um we actually had two Funding rounds yeah so we started Working on plaid in early 2012 yeah um And originally we thought that we were Going to build a consumer finance Application so something like Rambler Um we started out building consumer Budgeting tools and consumer uh consumer Experience management tools we built a Tool to help consumers figure out where To spend less money and you know similar Similar type of store you could go to But cheaper it turns out all the Products we built were focused on Telling people to spend less money yeah And when you build a consumer product Um that just tells people to do Something that they don't want to do one Of the national reactions that I guess

We should have thought of is that they Just stop using your app so pretty Quickly we would build these products we Launched them and no one would use them And so we learned a few things one was That we were just we just didn't Understand consumers well enough to Build the Great consumer products the The second big thing that we learned is Um you know integrating with banks is Really hard and the back end for what we Built was integrating with banks so we Ended up turning the back end for our Product into a a company itself and we Found you know so many great things Um mostly that we could affect so many Millions more consumers eventually by Building this infrastructure than than The one app that we'd created Um and so we actually along that Journey We'd raised sixty thousand dollars which Kept us alive for about 18 months Um and that's like a real shoestring Budget we were living in New York and That was that was difficult and then Yeah at the end of 2013 we raised our First actual round of easy actual round Yeah and and then it just sort of really Took off after that Um and I won't go through all your Funding rounds or anything like that but You're picking up really impressive Investors you or Andreessen came along And that was nearly like that was it you

Guys made it after then Um yeah you're describing something that Sounds like an easy story and that goes All up into the right it turns out not Quite like that but you were really you Were kind of jumping into the whole API Game like at a time when it was really Just just you know hitting the ground And and really picking up momentum you Know you've had twilio and stripe and And the whole kind of like API business Was suddenly a thing and it hadn't been Really before then suddenly it was just Like the the the the the the jargon that Was on everyone's tongue you know it was That was it on everyone's lips okay fast Forward a mere seven years later and Visa is knocking at your door Offering uh like 5.3 billion to buy you Guys Saying that they wanted to buy you as an Insurance policy because they were so Worried about what might happen with Their debit business which is like fully I think Justified because I think that's Where that is going to be the end game With how a lot of open banking stuff Works you know but so going back to then Obviously you're not acquired by Visa You did not get bought by them but going Back to that time how was that can you Talk to me about a bit about when they Came knocking were you like absolutely We want to go to this this is this is

Visa for you know for crying out loud or Like what was your sort of like you know Thinking or did you think we shouldn't Get acquired you guys did accept the Offer so talk to me about it okay I Think Um one of the hardest probably the Hardest decision that an entrepreneur Has to make Um kind of in the in the Arc of their Company is Um you know should we sell the company Should we not sell the company and I Think most successful companies will Have the opportunity to sell along the Way some multiple times Um for me this was certainly the hardest Decision that I made as an entrepreneur Was was deciding to sell the Visa and There were some really good reasons to Sell Um uh you know it's Um a great platform we were really Focused on International and scaling International Um Visa had amazing products they have a Great distribution amazing relationships With the banks there were so many Logical reasons plus the price was was a Very good price yeah it was double your Last Andreessen valuation it was it was Very good it was a very good price yeah Um There are a lot of reasons not to sell

Though as well so as an entrepreneur you Love building your company there's the Personal reason and there's also the Business reason you know we could Potentially have built a bigger company Independently Um and you know we went through this Intense debate actually remember Um I invited our entire leadership team Over to my house we were sitting in my Living room here in San Francisco Um and uh you know having this debate And there was no clear answer and There's not consensus some people were On one side some people were on the Other side Um and the rationale for it was was Definitely all over the place but at the End of the day it was my decision and And I made the decision to sell I Thought it was the best thing for the Business and most importantly the best Thing for the mission and for our Customers for us to scale within a Larger platform Um and uh it was one of those 5149 Decisions you know you could see like Both were amazing options uh we made the Decision to sell we thought that was the The right decision at the time right and Indeed if I'd gone back I still think That was the right decision at the time But the reality is the next 12 months Changed everything for us right so of

Course that was just before covet hit it Was um then covered like decimated Everything Um and it changed pretty much how Everybody did everything Um including how how people were Banking And and doing any purchasing of anything It all suddenly went super duper digital Right Um of course the decision on the visa Thing was out of your hands Um because Visa walked away from the Deal over antitrust issues with the Department of Justice Um How were you were you relieved were you Like oh crap or where were you there Take us to that time so it's a little Different than the way you phrase it I'll I'll share more um but basically What happened is uh 2020 uh announced I Think around the 10th or 15th of January Um we're gonna sell the company Um and after the team Um you know we knew we'd have to remain Independent continue to focus on what we Were doing until then would Visa have Let you stay independent that was that Was what they told us yeah so they said That we were going to run as an Independent entity everyone still rolls Up to me kind of a a piece within a Larger Hole yeah

Um but they Um you know so so you start off and and Kind of uh kick off a team focused People some people are excited some People are hesitant but overall people Are supportive of the direction Um then covet hits Um and this was March of 2020 Um and you know over the next four weeks The market just falls apart um you know Everything crashes and we're we're Looking at our deal that we've set up um It's an all-cash deal there's a Provision in it that says Visa can't get Out of it even in the case of a pandemic Um no way who would have thought that The pandemic Clause would would ever Come the lawyer puts in exactly assuming It will never ever ever have to come and So we feel like we're Geniuses yeah you Know we've just done the best deal the Marcus crashed we've got a price locked In on the pandemic closet you know if This thing closes then we'll do really Well Um and then you know people start to React and so Financial Services Um is looking at this this this concept Of how do I serve a consumer when they Can't walk into a bank branch anymore And everybody doubles down on digital so All the banks say hey we're taking our Three-year digital road map we're going To do it in six months

Um our customers say we've never seen This kind of growth we've never seen This kind of demand for online lendings People still need loans even though they Can't go to bank branch and so we saw This huge acceleration of the business The market started to turn and along the Way the doj Um kind of went through its process so The doj was investigating visa for for Antitrust nothing to do with plaid it's It's really on the Visa side Um and first they said you know we're Going to do the first look then they did A second look and then they kind of gave Us these signals that it is going to Take quite a long time and I'm just Saying it and the reality is we we could Have stayed in the transaction for a lot Longer but when we got 12 months into it Our business was very different you know We had this massive growth we had a huge Brand moment from from Visa kind of uh Announcing the deal Um and you know our team involved a lot And we stayed very focused our product Suite has expanded and and so kind of End of 2020 Um and early 2021 we had the same Meeting that we had but this time it was During covid so with the doors open in My living room and you know some people In person still not in person some People sitting outside some people

Sitting inside all the windows open Masked masked yeah yeah but it's the Same group of people sitting around the Table but this time the decision was Unanimous that we wanted to walk away From the deal oh you guys walked that Way I always thought Visa dropped it Because of the doj yeah so so we chose To walk away we worked closely with visa On this ultimately it became a mutual Decision which was which was where we Wanted to land it Um but uh yeah so so basically that time The discussion in the living room was Unanimous this everybody said we want to Walk away we believe the company's Better independently and then started The hard part by the way the next six Months were the most Sleepless six Months I've ever had Um yeah because you have to get everyone At the company refocused on the mission The independent path where we're going All this but that was a time that was a Really heady time I think that you know There was everything was about digital This and that and nobody was even Thinking for a second that they there Was anything around the corner that was That wasn't anything but pure growth you Know so maybe it wasn't too hard but so What's interesting to me is that you Guys already have uh investors Approaching you guys to give you funding

Were you to walk away from the deal Because it wasn't that long after that Deal Dropped that you announced Um a big funding that you know and a big Valuation you suddenly you went from you You didn't triple but you nearly tripled You went from five billion at visas Offer to over 13 billion dollars with Your last funding round Um so tell me was that like something You guys had in your pocket when you Walked away or were you was part of that Scramble like we need money now Because now we have no Runway Um you know we were actually fortunate We had a lot of Cash Coming language Yeah we had a lot of cash coming through The deal Um sorry we had a lot of cash going into The deal we had a lot of cash when we Exited the deal Um and the business is it's a Um you know very efficient business okay We were burning um very much actually I Think at that time we might have been Casually positive I don't remember the Details at that point Um but uh no we we didn't make the Decision with the funding round in hand But we were confident if we needed to Raise funding uh with the opportunity to Raise funding that it would be there Um we made the decision because we

Believed in the mission we believe in The team we had seen the evolution of The market and we see the evolution of Our products um and it was just a bet we Wanted to bet on ourselves we kind of Knew the path that we wanted to go Towards Um but yeah we did come out we raised a Big round of financing um brought a Board some amazing investors we feel Very fortunate to get to work with them Um and it's been uh you know a whole lot Of a whole lot of focus since then okay Okay well so It was very interesting Kind of gave a taste of like plaid Exiting Um maybe to your investors maybe to you Guys even though you decided not to then You raised the money and I believe that There was then started to be that was Definitely when the IPO window was Whoops open and um when it was oh thanks Zach thank you Um and um it was open and I think people Were even saying you know round on route To IPO and all of that stuff with you Guys Um okay let's fast forward to well the Number of people on Twitter that would Tweet at me say hey join this back join That's back oh God you're gonna have to Set a filter for anything God yeah the Spec thing was this back was were bad

But yeah I'm glad you guys didn't do That that's bananas um okay so fast Forwarding to now of course the market Has not been that kind to Um companies with large valuations who Are pre-market or even have gone public The IPO window has closed Um what is all that like how does all of That figure in your head now Um where are you guys on that so the the Short answer is we try to stay focused On the things that we can control and we Try to be responsive to the things that We can't control yeah um so I like to Say you know within the company our job Is not to predict the future but our job Is to react really quickly when the Reality on the ground changes Um and so in terms of evaluation you Know we don't comment on it but frankly We don't know what the valuation Actually would be and we know what the In internals of the company are we Understand uh the product Suite is Expanded we understand the relative Growth rate that we've seen year on year Has continued to stay really high and We've seen that the market continues to Grow and it goes from being just focused On digital finance and so you know we Use the term fintech generally to refer To things like neobanks or kind of these Other non-bank digital products Um that said it's gone from being just

That digital Market to being the banks Themselves really jumping in in a big Way and building Financial Services Products and increasingly seeing a lot Of the large Enterprises both Tech Enabled and non-tech enabled and Launching Financial Services products be That you know embedded lending be that Bank linked payments be that so many Other types of products that we're Seeing people launch and so what we try To do is um kind of tune out the noise And hopefully you know eventually as we Enter the public markets we'll say the Same thing tune up the noise just focus On the products focus on the things we Can control and make sure that we're Serving our customers in the best way That we possibly can over time okay so You guys are not talking or thinking About what is the next step then no not In the short term okay um I would say we Think a lot about what's the next step For the market for our products for our Customers but in terms of uh you know Raising another round or doing an IPO Um the reality is we're fortunate to be In a really strong Capital position we We've always operated from a position of Capital strength and we're just focused On the product and and our customers Okay so last year actually and it had Been in an interview I think in TechCrunch or maybe it was somewhere

Else um somebody at your company not you Maybe your CFO said that there were four Years of Runway left at the company Um is that accurate would that make it Three years now because you haven't Raised any more money you're not raised More money but um you haven't raised any Money since the valuation the reality is Um we have quite a lot of roommate I Don't know the exact number but um our Break even Target is relatively soon so It seems unlikely that we'll ever need More so you're unprofitable now but You're already you can see see the the Pattern Okay good that's awesome okay Um so um does that mean that you're Probably not going to be raising any More funding or Not for the foreseeable or we we don't Have any reason to raise funding uh in The foreseeable future yeah you know I I Can't predict what happens two three Four years down the line Um but not not in the short term nor is Anyone produced potentially knocking at The moment you know not not because You're not a great company but because Nobody's giving large amounts of money These days that's interesting it it does Seem that many aspects of the late stage Funding Market are starting to get more Active Okay Um you know I'm not going to come into

People reaching out to Plaid but Um we are starting to see some of our Customers raise rounds and put together Good financings and we are seeing some Late stage kind of public markets Investors still doing a little bit of Private and then the early stage Market As you know very well is is going Quickly yeah um what I've been really Inspired by is the level of innovation That we've started to see as late stage Markets were really stuck Um and not investing for about a year Um the amount of you know small dollar But still high volume checks going into Early stage startups it gets me really Excited about what the next wave for Fintech is going to be absolutely all Those sometimes it does feel like low Hanging fruit so like it's just like you Can see the funding happening and you Just think it's easier to give five I Mean from from my perspective Um you know the amount of pitches we get About fundraising rounds um that are Like Sub 10 million have really Gone off the charts you know and we Didn't and it used to be I think it's a Great thing so by the way I do too yeah I think it's healthier I mean I think It's just you know when it's all too Overvalued it just feels like it's Completely unsustainable maybe a busier

Inbox but yeah really I don't like my Poor inbox yeah Um okay so something that happened Um that I think probably helped your Your economics um and the the the the Way that the company operates in terms Of profit and loss um it has been like Not a great thing which is you guys Announced layoffs last year at the end Of 2022 it was like 20 of your staff Um now I think that from what I've read At the time it sounded like um you know Quite a bit from your engineering team Had to go And so on um tell me how maybe maybe you Can just talk a little bit about like How how a company like yours in hyper Growth mode Um kind of needing as you were saying After the Visa deal everyone pulled Together really go for it you know how Do you do that when you've had to lay Off 20 of your staff well like I said That selling selling a company is the Hardest decision that an entrepreneur Ever makes Um doing a reduction for us is probably The second hardest decision and Um for me it it certainly felt that way Um I as I said Um you know as a startup our job is to Do our best to predict the future but Also be realistic with the realities in The ground

Um when we were kind of entering 2021 And this this phase of rapid growth Um the thing that all our customers came To us and said is I want to go International Um help me go from the U.S to other Markets Um I particularly want to go to Europe But you know I want to be Global Um and in 2022 as the market started to Turn that sentiment on almost everything Fintech customer changed and they said I Don't want to go Global anymore I just Want to double down on the markets that I'm in and I want to be sure that I can Serve my customers there and I need to Focus on profitability and for us we try To be responsive to our customers now Maybe we should have been more skeptical About what they were saying but we built A pretty a very substantially sized European team to to do a lot of Expansion there Um and the decision that we had to make Was to actually reduce that size of the European team we still have a team there We're still focused on the market but It's dramatically smaller than it was Before and so um in terms of the the Teams that were impacted by this Reduction it was across the board it was It was all the teams that that were in Europe and Um uh some of the support staff as well

That was those related to to this Expansion Um and so you know I deeply feel for Those colleagues um you know we did our Best to make it the smoothest transition You can possibly make the reality is It's never a smooth transition and it's Never an easy process Um but coming out of it the team Understood what was going on because Again it's responsive to our customers There's responsive to what we're seeing In the market Um and I've been energized by how the Team has um kind of uh taken that very Seriously but also moved on to think About what's the next phase what's the Next Focus it's also in some sense built Um a bit more of a Frugal culture within The company a bit more of a you know Focused culture within the company and I Think people appreciate the long-term Orientation of that kind of a decision No one wants it in the short term it is The right long-term decision and um Would you say you guys are still Operating under that kind of frugality Like no more kombucha or sorry that's a Terrible joke it's just not even like It's not even useful it's mean I don't want to make it light I don't Want to make light of the layoffs but Are you guys still you know Frugal I Think I think we've always been uh we've

Always been focused on building what we Call a real business I mean yeah one of The jokes internally we say we're Building a real business Um and you know the company's been Casually positive many times Um we've always focused on uh you know Maintaining High margins and so forth Um and I think the sense of frugality But also investing in growth and it's Really like what you saw in 2022 was a Lot of companies cut costs and just Focus on getting profitable but that Impacted their growth right and we've Tried to find the middle ground of cost Reduction cost Focus but also at really Keeping Top Line strong Um and then most importantly building The things that our customers need now And customers will need in the future Um so we've seen a big expansion of our Product Suite um over the past three to Four years yeah and trying to continue That expansion in the way that is most True to our market and what our Customers okay I have something just to Ask you about that in two seconds but Before I do do you think that um all of That expansion is going to help you guys Keep your valuation the next time you do Have to raise money because I mean I Feel like you know the the sort of Valuation you know uh situation is not a Great one um like are they prepared for

That haircut that may inevitably come Look I I think the reality is our team You're still at 13 billion now am I Right or has it already been marketed Who knows what the actual evaluation is The last valuation was a 13 billion okay Um the the way that we think about Valuation uh again and we talked to our Team about this a lot is we want to be Pragmatic to the realities of what's Happening Um prices change over time and they Should change what we value is Um kind of acceleration for our Customers and and delivering on on the Products and the customers that we need Um and if we need Capital to do it we'll Raise Capital at whatever the Appropriate valuation is so long as we Believe uh long term in in the right Outcome I like to say that I'm not Egotistical about our valuation our Valuation is is what it is we don't even Determine it the market determines it Right Um I'm very egotistic about a long-term Valuation I care quite a lot about the Long-term valuation the 10 20 year Valuation and if that means kind of Taking steps along the way in order to Get there that's that's what we're Really focused on but again we don't Spend too much time thinking about it Because we don't need Capital we're not

Raising Capital Um just very focused on products okay Okay so with that big expansion into Products you guys have done a whole Bunch of interesting things you've made Acquisitions to kind of move into other Areas as well Cognito for um yeah was Your most recent one okay Um Kind of points to a very interesting Thing so I don't mean to bring this up But Jamie dimon um you know made this Called you guys a while back I'm sure You know this this is not a thing he Called you a data abuser Um and you guys have of course had a had To do some class action suit settlements On data and so on Um maybe you could just tell me about What lessons have you learned from all That Um and where are you going forward as You guys are building all these new Products that you're talking about how Is that Sitting with you yeah so look we've been Always very focused on building the Tools that customers need so the thesis Is a consumer wants to use their bank Account digitally they need to apply for A loan let's say and how do you connect Your existing bank account into that Loan application let's say you're Applying for a loan at Lending Club you

Have a Chase checking account how do you Connect this to that's what we build Um and what the way that we think about Our mission is to we call it a mock Financial Freedom for everyone we're Focused on helping consumers live better More differentiated Financial lives by Having access to all the products that They might want to use and having better Access gives them better rates gives Them so that's just the price that they Have to pay to have all this better Access is giving up their data or no not At all not at all um so where does the Data figure in that and how are you Being a better custodian of it now since You've had to do the settlement you've Had the high profile accusations Etc Well I think I think there's a few Things in there to untangle Um the first is we haven't changed our Data practices our data practices have Always been very focused on what's best For the consumer we've improved we've Added features so on and so forth and But the core concept of protecting Consumer data ensuring that consumers Are getting access to the products they Want and while being protected on the Back end and that's very core to us both From a security and a privacy standpoint And so that's never changed the Philosophy has never changed products

Have have certainly evolved um I think You have to keep in mind the different Circumstances under which the things That you mentioned happened first is We'd sold the company to visa and fairly Quickly thereafter there was a lawsuit Attempting to gain value you could say Gain value from Visa perhaps so that is Not I think they were sort of like the Proverbial ambulance Chasers there's It's not an uncommon thing to see patent Trolls it's not an uncommon thing to see A lawsuit filed following a big Acquisition Um and that that we we did end up Settling that but really the focus there Do you believe you settled it just to Get that stuff out of the way not Because you accepted that you guys had Any bad data practices yes and we can Always improve our practices we always Are welcome to feedback but we did Settle it yes to get it out and then What about Jamie dimon and Jamie Diamond's comments we welcome um I Deeply admire Jamie I'm I'm really Impressed by the the incredible things He's built over for so many years but The reality is we enable competition and Financial services yeah we enable Competition for the banks Um and what you'll notice is despite the Fact that he did yes make some comments About plaid early on

Um JPMorgan also invested later JPMorgan Became a flight customer they became a Large partner Frenemy um well look we we Try to work closely with everyone in the Industry and we're fortunate we have Very few competitors and and quite a lot Of Partners and quite a lot of customers Yeah the reality is we were building a New creating a new market right we're Creating the foundations for a new Market which is fintech and that Ruffles Feathers right but in some sense that's Also a good thing you want to be Ruffling feathers when you're creating a New market and now could we have done it In way you know would I have liked to to Maybe have a conversation with Jamie Before he said that absolutely Um but you know that wasn't the Opportunity that we had and so um You've said screwing a lot that sounds Very intimidating I think you're you're A tall guy I think you might have Intimidated him a little bit I don't Know Um okay so you mentioned competition um We don't have much time um in fact we Have no time but stripe I feel like they Are your biggest the biggest elephant in The room competing with you guys or do You see anybody else as a bigger threat Um I wouldn't say that I think that Stripe has Um some products that do compete with

Plaid yes and increasingly more Uh I don't think more have been added Recently Um yeah but they do have two products That they compete with plaid Um and uh historically we were closely With them as a partner and they've kind Of shifted their attack there and that's That's totally awesome to do but the Reality is we see most of our Competition as kind of paper frankly Like still many people walk into a bank Branch with a shoebox full of paper in Order to apply for a loan we can we can Fix that so so paper is one there are Some direct competitors that we've Always had Um but the the larger pie that we think About is um kind of enabling consumers To better have access to their financial Products and enabling consumers to Better use their bank account for things Like making a payment or or so many Other things out there so okay cool Thank you so much of course we're out of Time thanks everybody thank you for Having me yeah thank you Thank you

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