Jon McNeill on VC 2.0 and creating startups in house | Equity Podcast

[Music] Hello and welcome back to equity Tech Crunch's Flagship podcast about the Business of startups I'm Kiren corac Transportation editor here at TechCrunch And this is our Wednesday episode where We hone in on a trend in the startup World and dive deep today we're talking To partner and co-founder John mcneel of Dvx Ventures but John is more than just A venture capitalist he's a Serial Entrepreneur the former president of Tesla former coo at Lyft on the GM board And more recently on the cruise board so We have quite a bit to talk about today John welcome to the show thank you nice To be here all right well it's already Been a crazy summer in the world of Transportation which I kind of to jump Into first I have to ask you before we Start talking about dvx because you're a Former Tesla and worked closely with Elon I have to give your take on Elon Musk's recently approved $56 billion Compensation pay package this is what Shareholders recently reapproved after a Court rejected as flawed you were still At the company in 2018 when that package Was originally proposed I love your Perspective as not just former Tesla but As a serial entrepreneur and as a VC who Has led a number of companies do you Support these kind of performance-based Pay schemes or is this really a only

Works for Elon type of deal great Question I think as entrepreneurs we Think about alignment with our investors And maybe the purest form of alignment Is that everybody owns the same security And that's equity and we think a lot About that at dvx too to be honest you Know Elon thinks about things or thought And uniquely obviously and he wanted to Go all in and align his compensation With shareholders in a way that really Hadn't been done before and in a scale That hadn't been done before and you Mentioned the number I think the Alignment is a great first principle to Start with and I think that's a positive I think the targets that were in that Particular pay package at the time Nobody believed they were attainable and So there was a big number attached but One of the things that comp committee Has to do is they've got to basically Discount that back to reality like what Are the probabilities this happen and so They do a lot of analysis around that And the number came back a lot lot lower Like single digit billions and so even The comp committee's analysis didn't Believe it could be done so here we are With the benefit of hindsight and it was Done I think one of the downsides in Retrospect to these kinds of packages That can be easily adjusted but the Downside is when you take care of one

Founder there are a lot of people doing The work in elon's case it's even more I Think accentuated in that elon's at Tesla a day or two a week which means There's a team there that is largely Responsible for doing enormous amounts Of work that is not being compensated in That way and so in retrospect I think if The comp committee had a doover they Would I think they would want to think About the people that are doing the work Seven days a week there that probably Also deserve a piece of the pie a second Downside of those kinds of comp packages Is in this case it gives a founder Billion reasons not to leave and so Folks talk about in these particular Companies hey why isn't there a strong Number two that emerges and the reason Is is because a talented strong number Two probably looks at that situation and Says there are 55 billion reasons why I'm not going to have autonomy in this Role and so I think that's something to Think about too for comp committees but We do see now a whole generation of Entrepreneurs who've adopted this kind Of mentality of alignment they want to Be comp this way and probably the most Common discussion we have with Co-founders of our businesses because we Come up with a business idea and then Somebody comes along and says hey this Is this is one I'd like to lead we have

These kind of conversations with folks And probably the most common denominator In the conversations over the past few Years has been I'm happy to go light on Cash I want to go heavy on equity and That I think is a result of Elon kind of Breaking the Paradigm so for that I give Him a lot of credit yeah it interesting Though because when it's a publicly Traded company you know I see some real Downsides some of which you mentioned But also that the incentive can be to Get that stock price higher and Sometimes it can be based on real work And real achievements right and other Times it can just be based on the fact That in elon's case he has a Particularly large platform so backing Up to your startup Founders do you talk About like these are privately held Companies this is a little different how Do you talk to them about weighing that Risk of just taking in all equity and Also making sure that the folks below Them are properly compensated like how Are you advising them are you actually Telling them maybe steer clear of that Model a little bit or do a hybrid Approach I think it's more of a hybrid Approach and it's based on not only in My experiences with public companies but As you mentioned my experien is as an Entrepreneur as a seven time Entrepreneur and what learned over time

Is you've got to take care of your team And by taking care of your team that Means it's maybe not a one- siiz Fits-all because there are folks that Are at different stations in life and Some may have a cash need that is Greater than it may be in a different Part of their life and so there are some Folks that can go light on cash heavy Equity there are other folks that can't Often times you see that with folks Early in their careers they haven't had A big win yet they've been Scrappy they May have paid their own way through College and may have started a business Or have just been working in a large Business but hadn't had a a chance to Really fill in their bank account and They're going to need cash to live and Especially if they're starting a Household or kids or educations that Sort of stuff obviously puts cash Pressure and demands on them so we I'd Like to think about with our CEOs let's Think about how we take care of the team Not just you because we're going to have To build out a worldclass team here not Just a world class CEO and what that Compensation will need to look like in a Framework for folks both equity and cash Where people can within boundaries Choose the path that really works for Alignment of interest for them to make This thing work mhm backing up a little

Bit way back before we get to the CEO Piece dvx is actually structured quite Differently and from the beginning than A lot of the VC firms that we're Familiar with in the valley you've Described it to me in the past as VC 2.0 um but I love to know what does that Mean because it almost looks like what You've done is created a start incubator So what is it we describe ourselves as a Company creation platform and it starts With the fact that a few of us that are Involved have an idea disease and we Generate business ideas pretty fluidly And so oftentimes we'll have 35 to 50 Different ideas that have been generated In the hopper we start from there like So different than other Venture Studios Or incubators or Venture funds for sure We're not out hustling to get ourselves In front of the next entrepreneur with a Great idea we're starting from a Different Vector which is we have an Idea and now we got to make sure it's The right idea the best idea Etc so the Front end of our process looks quite Different from VC 1.0 which is a lot of Serendipitous meetings with Entrepreneurs to get in front of the Entrepreneur at the right place right Time when they have that fantastic idea We're doing something quite different Which is we are vetting ideas we're Really kind of beating the stuffing out

Of these ideas to make sure that they Are viable they can be large they can be Very profitable and that we've got a Path to And we spend a lot of time on that in Terms of the structure of the fund that Also looks different one of the things That really struck me over the past five To seven years in Venture is a lot of Close friends of mine who were Principles in sandill Road firms were Saying hey the game has changed and the Game is now raise and deploy as fast as You can so you can raise some more and The fee income that we're seeing is Incredibly luxurious and I watched their Risk profile shift with that because Obviously there's no risk to fee income On a 2 and20 fund you get those 2% Management fees year in and year out so If you're constantly raising larger and Larger funds and adding to your assets Under management your compensation is Shifting more and more towards fees and Away from carry and carry was the thing That motivated that's the 20 part of the 2 and20 and as I watched that I started To ask the question that we touched on Earlier which is alignment like how Could you get ultimate alignment with Your investor As a venture fund and I came down to the Simple principle that the best way to Get alignment is to hold the same

Security and so we are no fee no carry We're like a private Brookshire haway And I own shares of that entity my Investors own shares of that entity the Only way I make money out of this is if Those share values go up and that we get Liquidity eventually so we're perfectly Aligned and I wish I could say I came up With that idea idea on my own but it was Really inspired by a conversation with Mike spyer at Sutter Hill who in he Described their fund structure and I Described some of the the pitfalls that I was seeing in the 220 structure he Said let me tell you about our structure And why this works for alignment and so We took a page out of the Sutter Hill Book and have gone down the no fee no Carry path and our upside is totally Lined with our investors and I think You're going to see more and more of This inventure which is why we call it Bc20 I think the investors and Venture Which are often called limited partners Are going to start demand more of this Kind of alignment as performance has to Really outperform other asset classes Just due to the time it takes to bake These startups and to get liquidity There needs to be a return premium that Exists for investors and I think one way To do that is through alignment these Kind of structures what do you think is Prompting the shift I mean you mentioned

Sutter Hill and then of course your own Firm but you also said that we're going To see this more and more why wouldn't VC's just stay with the 1.0 model and And those management fees what's Prompting the shift what's prompting the Shift is there are a certain class of Long-term investors The Sovereign funds Large family offices who want long-term Compounding and they want incentives Aligned for that they feel like the 220 Model was invented 40 some years ago and Hasn't really changed and they were Looking for Innovation and as Sutter and Others started to innovate there are Other big firms that have stepped in to This and so Sequoia restructured into a Permanent structure over the last 18 Months so you've got big big names like Sequoia that are also moving in this Direction and I think that's largely Because some of their investors are Saying hey we we want to be aligned with You we want to be long-term Compounders With you and we feel like the structure Optimizes for that but there's a big Hurdle in the way for a lot of funds and That is they've got institutional Investors who need predictable liquidity And the 220 vehicle serves that purpose Very well if you're retirement fund or a University fund and you need to fund Professors and buildings and maintenance You need to know that there's liquidity

Cycles and there are Harvest periods and Things like that and the 2 and20 Structure serves that investor class Well and I think there's a number of vs Who majority of their investors fit that Profile and so therefore they're Probably not going to move to this more Aligned structure because they would Have to walk away from a number of their LPS and those are relationships that They've developed over years if not Decades and that's a big risk Right I want to go back to when you Started to describe it you talked about Ideas and that at your office you might Have 35 to 50 different ideas at any Time and so are these ideas that come Out of committee form or is John walking Down the sidewalk sees something gets an Idea brings it and it goes from there Talk to me about that idea process and Specifically how do you how do you vet It because you're taking on quite a bit Of risk right take it from idea to a Startup so walk me through that process So it kind of comes the ideas are formed Two ways outside in and inside out the Outside in approach is a typical Approach where you take a thematic look At a space and you start to analyze that Space and see where there's investment Opportunities so maybe a couple years Ago an example that would be Cloud a Couple years ago 18% of compute had

Moved to the cloud and the question we Started to ask ourselves is if 18% of Computes move to the cloud what happens When the next big chunk of the 82% that Hasn't moved to the cloud moves what Does that look like what tools need to Be created what things will need to Exist that don't exist today and that's An outside in look and we start with a Big big idea and try to boil it down to Ingredients that we might be able to Have a hand in that's the outside in Process the inside out process is one You described as more serendipitous it's Walking down the street or more Typically for me it's some orthogonal Thought that happens in a board session Where I'm in a board meeting and I'm Starting to see an angle on a business In a different way than I've maybe have Thought about it before so an example of That is a few years ago I was in the Audit committee meeting for Lululemon And one of the things the audit Committee has to do is part of the cyber Security risk is they've got to approve The Cyber insurance premium for the year And so it's not a very exciting thing That you go through but you go through a Big presentation on on the health of the Of the Cyber stack within your company And you here's why the Cyber insurance Cost what it cost a few weeks later I Was sitting in on the lift audit

Committee meeting they're approving the Cyber insurance premium ironically Lulu Limon and Lyft were asked to pay the Same amount for cyber insurance that Year and I asked the CFO of Lyft said How can this be like Lulu barely has an Email address from a customer at Lyft we Have driver identities we have their Passports we have their birth Certificates in some cases we have their Bank accounts we have their credit card Accounts and we are getting bad actors Trying to break in several hundred times A minute how can those two things pay The same amount he said John you won't Believe this it's cyber insurance is not A tech product it's a paper product I Said what do you mean he said we fill Out a 25-page PDF and it basically comes Down to our SIC code and our number of Employees and I said well that's the way Workers comp insurance is underwritten Cyber shouldn't be underwritten that way There's no way Lulu should pay the same Amount as lift he said exactly the System's broken so that's where the idea Starts I come back to our team I say can We figure out how big is the cyber Insurance Market how fast is it growing Why is it structured this way as a paper Product what would we need to believe if We could really disrupt this market and So we start working on that and it takes Us about a year and we come out with

Something that is incredibly unique and So we launched a company in January that Gets inside a security stack of a Company most tests are done from the Outside this is inside out it basically Is like a it's like an MRI for a company It tells you where the danger is where It's not it's an underwriting model so It prioritizes those things for the Company that idea has gone from idea to Company in about 2 years and in about 3 Months it's gone from zero Revenue to Now on its way to a million in ARR on Its way to two million in ARR and then Five million in ARR it's growing like Crazy that started with the Inside Out Idea process interesting so now you have From idea to company 14 portfolio Companies that have been built from the Ground up really and have raised funds I Believe about I think 40 million total Raised in these portfolio companies to Date maybe you can update me on that but What I found really interesting is that They span all these different sectors And industries you've got consumer Tech And B2B SAS and Ai and climate Tech very Diverse what is the connecting thread Here going back to what you described a Moment ago about sort of the idea to Launch Process how do you navigate so many Different areas of expertise there has To be like a common theme or thread

Right you're on to us yeah there Definitely is a common theme and that is There's a very hard technical problem Inside what looks like a very profitable Business market so in that cyber example It was okay how do you get inside the Stack and know what's there nobody's Going to let you inside the stack is the First response you have as you're going Through that idea but that then results In a really hard technical problem to go Solve and so if you looked across all of Our businesses we've got as you said We've got clean tech we've got cybertech We've got payment Tech fintech we've got Some consumer stuff inside every one of Those there's a really hard at least one Technical problem sometimes multiple Technical problems and so we'll spend The first chunk of our work trying to See if we can solve that technical Problem and if we can then we're going To wrap that with really good product Design and really good go to market but It all starts with that Common Thread And that is there's something really Tough here that hasn't been solved and We're going to try to solve it do you Steer clear of Hardware or do you have Some Hardware startups as well we have Some Hardware yeah we're not afraid of Hardware if that's part of the solution We've got a clean tech business where El And I actually used to riund riund HVAC

Quite a bit when we were traveling Because when you at a really high level When you look at the way the world's Energy spent it's kind of in a pie of Equal thirds so a third is in Transportation that's where Tesa lives a Third is in industry and a third is in Heating and lighting and cooling Buildings and most of that last third is In Heating and Cooling and elon's been Kind of obsessed with finding a new Residential HVAC answer and I was more Obsessed with the commercial side of the Business because there's so much real Estate footprint there and so we started To explore that and said what if we Usually start with a what if statement So the what if statement here was what If we could save half of the building's Energy cost we find out way to do that It turns out that as we kind of pulled The string on this idea we found out That 90% of the real estate footprint in The US is 50,000 or square foot or less Buildings that are greater than 20 years Old which means they have multiple HVAC Systems sitting in them it's a bunch of Different stacks of stuff on the roof so That's why when you go to these Buildings you see like different brands Of thermostats on the walls and so we Started ask ourselves okay there's a Technical problem here could we rewrite The firmware on those thermostats could

We use an appliance to talk to the HVAC System and make it a lot smarter and Better that's a really tough technical Problem we worked on that for better a Course of two years watched the company It's called cognition controls it's led By this wonderful CEO Natalie Elliott And she is tackling that problem but There's a hardware element and we're not Afraid of hardware at all if it's going To solve a big problem she's now Approaching a thousand different walls With this product and is saving 40% of The building's energy cost so it's right On our what if statement right out of The gate which is what we hope to do we Want to really change the world in a big Big market and that's what this is going To do the technical aspect of all of These different companies is so Fascinating to me because you really Have to become an expert in so many Different areas so are you bringing in Different people to for sure you know Vet ideas and yeah is this group Constantly changing it is so we bring When we have an idea that goes through The initial part of our process which is Basically it's proving that we've got a Big Market there are larger profit pools Here and that we think we've got an Angle to win then we bring an Advisory Board in people that have domain Expertise that's way deeper than ours

And that advis board then helps us with The next step which is okay let's design A product or let's solve the technical Problem to go after this opportunity so The short answer your question is yeah We don't have domain expertise in Everything we're careful to choose areas Where we've got some exposure but we Want people around the problem that have A lot more exposure than us a lot of Times have just a stellar track record Of solving problems in the in this Particular domain and so that's a part Of our process so is this where you find Your CEOs because then again this is the Next you know ult hurdle which is a Finding a person who is technically and Has a business experience to do it but Also a lot of Founders and and we Ascribe this especially in the valley And other areas is the passion for the Thing that they're obsessed with right Yeah so how do you find that person when You are the ones who came up with the Idea what does that process look like One of the most common things I heard in CEO groups that I've been a part of my Whole career is I'm ready to do my next One I just don't have an idea and there Are a number like really towns of people Walking around and I would say that Described me when Elon and I cross pass Tesla obviously was my idea electric Cars were not my passion but I adopted

It as my passion and went after it full Throttle and I was really inspired by Reed Hoffman's story about Jeff Weiner And Reed had started LinkedIn and the Whole founding team had really developed An incredible product but four or five Years later when Jeff weiner joined he Transformed that company and Reed called Him a co-founder even though he showed Up four or five years later I found a Lot of inspiration in that story because I felt like that was a story of some of My career but also I knew a number of People like that and so we tend to Follow that model which is we want to go Find somebody who will be transformative But may not have the next idea sitting At the top of the stack for them we've Got 14 different ideas right now that Could be attractive and they're largely Risks because we've worked on the Product we've worked on product Market Fit but often times somebody will come In and be able to scale a company quite Differently so we're looking for those Kind of leaders but this is the hardest Part of what we do it is finding Incredible co-founders to lead these Businesses over the long time yeah I Have to I wonder where you find them is It a word of mouth process is it just Folks in your circle and then how do you Ensure that you're sort of turning over Every Rock to find new and interesting

People because I think that one of the Things we see is sort of a a recycling Of the same folks you keep seeing which Are great but then how do you bring in More new and interesting people into This realm of startup founder status or CEO I think one of the things that I Really got worried about is like my Circles are too limited they're limited Age-wise demographically we're not going To find diversity of thought or other Forms of diversity in that Circle so we Made a decision early on to partner with Strategically partner with some search Folks who had broader networks than us More diverse networks than us Geographically and all kinds of ways and So I would say our first CEOs who've Come into these companies have mostly Been from that process maybe 60% from That process 40% from our own networks And what that led to is it's pretty Incredible like out of the first six Company CEOs we have four are diverse Three are female so we gr 50% female CEOs and these folks are just have been Fantastic at hitting the ground running So I think we wanted to bust the Self-limit of our own networks clearly That's a key part and it's a part that We use but we wanted to expand well Beyond that so that we got talent that We didn't know that we didn't see Because I you can't be everywhere and

You can't see all the talent that's out There and so to your point we wanted to Turn over rocks that we personally Weren't turning over and we found that We needed to have partners that could do That with us you talk about finding that Technical hard pinch Point that's sort Of that Common Thread between all of Your portfolio companies and so I have To bring up AI because um it's one of The buzziest right now specifically Generative AI how are you handling that Because there's so much hype and Buzz Around it and there are you know Legitimate interesting companies popping Up but quite a bit of vaporware how are You even thinking about AI And are you thinking about it in terms Of How It's applied for instance with Autonomy which is an area that you're Kind of in right now as a board member Of Crews for me I think about it first As infrastructure this feels a lot to me Like the early early days of the Internet when I first got access onto The web it was still a university access System and you were doing a billion Searches on Archie and Veronica and People were talking about packet Transmission and aami was just getting Started all that stuffff was Infrastructure and people were really Excited about it but it was just Infrastructure and the really

Interesting stuff was yet to come it was What was going to get built on that Infrastructure and people weren't Imagining things like xedia or Airbnb But they certainly weren't imagining Things like the iPhone and then apps Etc And so it this feels to me like that the GPT models are infrastructure and They're advancing so rapidly that Developing those models obviously takes Incredible amount of talent in cash but If you're only going to have a model Advantage for say 30 days there's no way You can extract enough profits to Justify the kind of valuations that are Out there so I think those are going to Become less interesting Investments and The more interesting Investments are Going to be what's built on top of this And so you mentioned one one of the Things that that I'm super passionate About is autonomous driving and it's Largely for two reasons one is there are More than 40,000 people in the US every Year that have to go through the loss of A family member due to a car accident And 95 % of those accidents are Avoidable because they're Human air and Autonomy could address that the second Is I've got a good long-term friend his Name is Dale Dale is legally blind it Has been for years when I started to Work at Tesla he called me and said when Can I take my first drive by myself ever

And I said I think we're a few years Away and that few years has turned into More than a few years but Dale is front And center of my mind when I think about Folks who don't have the ability to have Transportation Freedom will have the Ability to have transportation freedom These are super kind of disruptive Applications that are going to be built Upon Genera Ai and other AI tools and I Think that's where we're going to see Real world change and so we're thinking About that second layer not the first Layer and we're looking for those second Layer opportunities in terms of autonomy You said you were passionate about it And you were you obviously are involved Over at Cruz you came to Cruz board Through your you know appointment to the GM board in October 2023 Really I think it was like a day or two After what has now become quite the Infamous incident on October 2nd and That's when a Cru Robo taxi hit a Pedestrian that had first been hit by a Human driven vehicle but then dragged That person and and what ended up Happening is permits being pulled crws Really going into some internal chaos The founder co-founders and CEO stepping Down it felt like right before that Moment That here we were autonomy was happening Was happening in San Francisco and then

It just Abruptly spiraled from where you sit now How have your feelings around autonomy And its Readiness for the public changed Was this it just seems like there's this Possibility where one incident and how a Company reacts to it can actually take That technology and move it in terms of Commercial applications way back what is Your Viewpoint now of where economy sits And is it been sort of forever pushed Back due to that one incident I don't Know if it's been pushed back but I Think the bar has definitely been raised And it's been raised I can speak Specifically to cruise because as you Mentioned Cruz and weo last fall were Out on the roads in San Francisco and Autonomous Robo taxi is ubiquitous and It looked like we were right on the Precipice what needed to happen at Cruz In response to the accident was a couple Of things it was not only a technology Issue that caused that accident but it Was a regulatory response right after The accident that was maybe even a Bigger issue and we needed to do a reset At cruise that puts Safety First and Regulator and constituent interests way More at the top of the agenda than they Had been previously the good news is is GM's really good at that and Mary bar in Particular is really good at that she Led GM out of the ignition crisis which

Could have been an existential crisis For GM she reset the culture around Safety and her team that helped her Through that period in transition has Really helped Cruz over the last six Months and a huge amount of credit goes To them but I think the second thing That happened is the bar has been raised We have two very strong leaders at Cruz One who's been dealing with the Regulatory and the safety front that I Mentioned he's doing incredible job Craig Glon the second is our engineering Leader and mo has really described a Reset to not only do we need to be Better than the average driver we need To be better than than the most Attentive driver a really good driver And so the bar has been raised from what The public expects and what we expect of Ourselves and I think that's healthy and So the cruise team went to work on that In the past six months we're now Re-entering the markets we're doing this In a very different way and I think it's In a way that that builds confidence Amongst the people that are in those Communities builds confidence with the Regulators and helps to Usher this Technology forward because the technolog Is necessary we don't need to have tens Of thousands of people dying in traffic Deaths we need to solve this problem and We're not the only ones trying to solve

It I was just in China two weeks ago and China's got very formidable autonomous Driving companies that are out on the Roads with significant numbers of cars Offering Robo taxi services there will Be other countries that emerge with this But I totally believe the US has to be a Player and Cruz is going to be one of Those players and I'm excited to be a Part of it I would love to have a whole Another episode to talk about autonomy With you and also your impressions in China unfortunately we're all out of Time one final follow-up though with Cruz do you expect that it's made enough Progress on safety and changing the Culture that we see the company Operating commercially again within 2024 I think what you're seeing is we're Taking we're taking steps and rather Than saying to the team we want to be Live with Robo on this day which may Create compromises and misaligned Incentives we're saying let's go through These right steps let's start with Supervised driving and then let's work Our way back to commercial Robo taxi but In a different way and in a way that is Really reflective of our need to be a Partner with communities and regulators And to have the safety first mentality So you'll see us marching towards that And no public pressure on dates with the Team because we want the team to do this

The right way and we're in this for the Long Haul and this definitely has proven To be a long haul problem not a short Hul problem great well thank you so much For joining us we're about out of time But John where can our listeners connect With you online you can find me at dvx Dventures or you can find me on LinkedIn Those are the quickest ways to get to me Great well thanks so much for joining us On the show and to our listeners you can Always find me on pretty much every Social media platform at Kirsten corc on X and threads and Linkedin and of course Equity is on X and threads at Equity pod Equity will be back on Friday with our Weekly news Roundup so we'll talk to you [Music] Then Equity is produced by Teresa Lo Cons solo with editing by Kell Bryce Durban is our illustrator and we'd like To give a big thanks to our audience Development team and Henry pit who Manages Tech crunch audience products Thanks so much for listening and we'll Talk to you next time

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