FTX victims get some money back, acquisitions are heating up | Equity Podcast

This episode is presented by invest Puerto Rico if you believe your business Can go anywhere Puerto Rico is the [Music] Place hello and welcome back to equity a Podcast about the business of startups Where we unpack the numbers and Nuance Behind the headlines today is May 10th I'm Mariann aavo and joining me is Senior TC reporter Alex Wilhelm Alex Dare I ask how are you today well I feel Like someone has tried to kill me and Then reassembled me using old spare Parts that don't fit together I have Covid for the first time that I know of So if I sound like I'm a caver uh Accurate but I was not going to miss the Show I'm here I'm excited yay Equity What a trooper Alex H sucks yeah we're Also joined by TCH crunch senior Reporter and editor Kiren cek Kiren how Are you presumably better than Alex I am Living the dream and not with Co so Happy but feeling very empathetic Towards Alex I I have a question about That because I don't go places much so I Haven't had covid yet so this is my First time have you guys had covid once Once okay I have not and I travel all The time so well that's not fair I know It's not fair I travel a lot for work I Go on press drives and I haven't ever Had it and I've been checked to see if I've ever had it and I haven't so I'm

One of those weirdos genetic anomaly you Know what though I think I would have Made fun of you before getting covid but Now after the last 12 hours I I would Just Revel in that hell yeah go Kirsten's immune system rock and roll Right yeah well today we are going to Get through a lot of topics including up Top we've got FTX news once again Deals of the week include a May health Emotional part two and Lucid Bots and Then we're going to be talking about Mercury the latest going on there and We're going to also take a look inside a New string of Acquisitions so Kirsten Tell us about FTX what's the latest yeah Before we get into the deals I feel like This is a happy outcome somehow from FTX Crypto fraud victims are basically Getting their money back plus interest So in total FTX says it's basically be able to Distribute between 145 to 16.3 billion In cash and that's going to go to Debtors and that includes interest so It's kind of good news okay I saw this Kristen and I was like wow look at that What a what a surprisingly positive Outcome for such a catastrophic cluster Freck of a company and then I discovered That they are getting their initial Dollar equivalent back plus interest but If they held like the cryp CTO that FDX Had had it would have appreciated more

So there are some folks who are annoyed They're not getting the full Appreciation and I I get that but if you Didn't think you were going to get any Money back and you're getting your Initial principal plus interest I mean That's better than I thought it's better Than nothing agreed though that it it Does suck that if you had put that money In a different exchange it today would Be worth a lot lot more but yeah again If you're looking at the alternative of Zero compared to at least something it Is is better and it's unexpected I think This is this is one of those not your Keys not your coins moments kind of Brought to life if you Will right I mean it's it was an outcome I didn't expect so it's easy to look at You know 2020 hindsight had we put it in Another investment it would have been X But the fact that I didn't think anyone Would get a dime I feel like yeah good Job yeah for sure for sure definitely Again better better than nothing well Now let's talk about a startup called a May Health it's building an in-person Approach to Mental Health Care Alex tell Us about it okay so one thing I think We've all seen in and around the world Since the onset of Co and then its Retreat and then you know haha irony is That people are a little bit more Anxious and a little bit more depressed

And I think that there has been a lot of Good work done out there to to build Companies that are scaling virtual Therapy so more folks have access to Mental Health Services good the problem Is if you want to focus more on on more Serious mental health issues you need a Different set of tools and that's why I Wanted to bring up a health they just Raised a $15 million series Aid led by Quiet capital and tunch has the key Thing here which is why I really like This company so they quote bring Resources including family and Individual therapy social workers Psychiatric care and Medicine management All under one physical roof if you have Have a very ill family member mental or Physical having a One-Stop shop for Their care is amazing because then You're not piecing together different Providers different insurances and so Forth so I I think aeh health is one of Those companies that I look at I'm like This is an awesome company and then I'm Like wait a minute it's Venture back Well my exact thought I think it's a Great concept I think it's needed Especially in the case of severe mental Illness but I was struggling a little Bit to understand I guess where the tech Angle is and I'm thinking it has to do With the the data that it's collecting And using AI to go through that data so

They can help improve care I mean I Don't know Kirsten what do you think Well I guess my very first question was Why did this not exist before mental Health issues are not new and just like Putting aside The Tech play for a moment Just putting everything under one Umbrella has this never existed before Or has it but just not as efficiently I I think the issue here is just money and I don't think that people who have the Most severe mental illnesses are the Ones that have the biggest checkbooks With which to write checks I mean it's a Good point there are psychiatrists of Course that can treat severe mental Illness but they are very very expensive And even if you have insurance it may Not be covered a psychiatric visit may Not be covered so imagine people who Either don't have insurance insurance or Not great Insurance getting the care They need can be next to Impossible you Know what we should do Maryann is we Should stop treating teeth and brain as If they're entirely different fields of Health and instead we should have Insurance that covers you versus Everything but your face bones and your Squishy bits you know it sounds like Another startup idea Alex that you Should maybe look into or maybe there's One out there that we can write about Didn't Amazon try that and didn't it not

Work it didn't really work yeah there Was a question though about the data Platform and and just to touch on that Really briefly so the company is using AI to go through just reams of data that It collects at its clinics to find ways To continue to improve the care so there Should be an improvement over time and Some efficiencies and I think we're Seeing that in other areas of Healthcare Of how AI is being used yeah I I got to Say of all the AI things we're going to Use AI on the data sounds to me the the Most like a sprinkling of AI pixie dust On the company but that said I do not Want to be rude I think a is doing cool Things and I'm very hopeful that their Model Works in scales and we take better Care of one another absolutely did we Mention they raised a $50 million series A led by quiet Capital I'm not sure if We mentioned that I I thought I did but Given that right now my brain is full of Cotton candy and um little bits of rat You know I don't think I'm actually too Confident well just in case you didn't I Had to mention it again but Kirsten There's more for emotional this week What's going on there yeah so if you Remember there was some news that Motional which is the AV startup that is Was really born out of a joint venture Between Hyundai Motor Group and aptive Which is an automotive supplier and it

Was supposed to be a $4 billion joint Venture earlier this year aptive was Like yeah actually JK our business isn't Doing awesome we don't really want to Allocate any more money towards this Venture which is really more if you Think about it Frontier Tech we're going To not only do that but we'd like to you Know lessen our Holdings so the big Question came around was would Hyundai Step up or would motional fold would Another external investor come in Hyundai step forward and really it's a Billion about a billion dollar Investment about 475 million going Directly into motional and the remaining To buy not all but a lot of the shares From aptive this week we had a scoop That kind of Ted talks about the Consequences of getting that money which Is you can't just think of this as oh That's a runway for a year instead major Restructuring so what's going to happen Now is we got the little inside tip and Then ended up reporting it out but Motional is ceasing all commercial Operations so they still have a human Safety driver behind the wheel but they Have a ride hailing service in Partnership on the lift network and on The Uber Network in Vegas that's not Happening anymore they had a partnership With Uber Eats and Santa Monica that's Not happening anymore so think of all

The commercial operations which really They were using as a test bed in a way But getting closer to that commercial That's done and they're also pushing Back their plans to launch a fully Driverless service so no human in the Loop anymore at least behind the wheel That was supposed to happen this year Now it's pushed to 2026 so it's all About focusing on core Tech and it's a Lot of layoffs y'all a lot it seems like It I mean I think one question I I do Have though Kirsten why do you think They're doing this why the delay so they Internally talked about a couple of Things but we're seeing this as a Problem throughout first of all there Was in the hype cycle of AVS a lot of Well there was some hubus for sure and Excitement about um and this is across The entire industry this isn't just Emotional about launching by 2019 driver List right oh my goodness those Timelines have long since gone and what A lot of companies are finding is just The cost per mile to operate a Commercial service is incredibly Expensive and in some cases the tech Isn't quite there meaning the component Cost is really high what it takes to Operate in safely in the way that they Want is just incredibly expensive and so Then companies have to make a choice Yeah do we continue on this track in

Which we know we're going to burn x Amount like about 475 million in a year Or do we focus just completely on the Cortech get rid of all that commercial Operation stuff until costs come down And the tech becomes so good that then The cost of operating is lower and we're Seeing this happen across the board Actually and we have seen this played Out over a couple years companies kind Of going back and even weo which is very Much commercially operating is some Sense that they are going to have to Probably get some outside funding as Well at some point to continue isn't That owned by alphabet isn't alphabet Doing dividends and BuyBacks wow it's Almost like companies that get to be That big end up focusing more on Pleasing Wall Street than doing Innovative work no comment anyways I Just ran the math Hyundai is worth 59 Trillion Korean W so I had to I didn't Know how to convert that it's worth like 43.3 billion right now and I pulled up The company's earnings good cash flow Good cash position so they can afford This and Hyundai to be clear not Alphabet so I think in this case it Makes a lot of sense well the the Interesting thing here is that we saw What happened to Argo which was backed By Ford and VW in which in that case Ford and VW looked at how much more

Money that they were going to have to Invest to bring this to commercial Status and they blinked and they pulled Out and then Argo died and then instead They decided oh we're going to focus on Automated driving in like Advanced Driver assistance systems and also have A very small sort of Team focused on That higher levels of automation what we Would consider like Robo taxi stuff so It could have been a lot worse for Emotional that could have happened and I'm not saying it won't but looking at Hyundai this is a company that is very Interested in robotics and AI they own Boston Dynamics don't forget so they are Interested in some of this Frontier Tech And they seem committed but let's just Say in more realistic terms let's not Light all the cash on Fire Let's be a Little bit more pragmatic about it Speaking of Robotics my deal of the week Is a fun one it's a company called Lucid Bots Christine wrote about it and this Really caught my attention for a couple Of reasons one it's based out of North Carolina my home state which I love There's not very many companies that we Talk about that are out of North Carolina but more importantly what it Does so it started out by having Developed these drones to clean windows And like really high-rise buildings and Things like that which as you know is

Scary scary scary my heart would drop Anytime I would see that when I used to Work in a high-rise building and I'd see A person like on the side there trying To clean the windows I was just Terrified that something was going to Happen and they were going to fall so Lucid Bots they years ago actually came Up with this line of drones to clean Windows in tall places and they were Even in y combinators 20 19 cohort but Over time they started getting asked by Customers can your drones do things like Clean side walks driveways you know roof Building facad stuff like that and at First they were kind of like hm you know A drone on a flat surface we don't see How that would work so they built a a Robot to do it which I think was a great Way to meet customer demand and grow the Business so they uh built a lavot a Pressure washing robot all right and if You want to know what these look like The Lavo oot looks like a mix between One of those robots they use to disarm Bombs and a lawn mower and then the Other one looks like a DJI drone that Has a bit of a thing for water but They're really really cool and I I love This because I think we often think About what is it Kirsten level five Self-driving as like the goal for robots And stuff but mostly robots are for Industrial applications and as someone

Who has done a lot of pressure washing On concrete let me tell you it's boring So bring on the robots I I I think this Is so cool and if they can do this with Just a $9 million series a bro someone Get them an extra zero you know I'm Really curious what they can do with a Lot of money because this is a lot of Work with not much oh be careful about Giving any startup too much money Because sometimes that's not a good Thing they can become less efficient so Let's not do that but to me what's Really interesting is watching sort of How autonomous driving and also robotics Has evolved in the past let's say five Or six years and a lot of autonomous Vehicle startups that went bust kind of Reimagine maybe the founders went and Started a new startup all focused on Industrial applications and it's the Boring stuff but it's the make money now Stuff which I think is really Interesting plus some I think component Costs have come down in robotics there's Been you know certainly progression in Compute that now makes these things more Possible than ever before and I think Think you're right like having Industrial robotics makes so much more Sense than some of the gwiz tech that's More consumer facing and is a lot Riskier yeah I mean the company did just Over three and a half million in Revenue

In 2023 apparently Executives say they've Been on an exponential clip for the last Three years refreshing that they Actually shared a revenue number as well Did you say three and a half million Yeah it's too bad they're not an AI Company they'd be worth S7 trillion Doar um my goodness right they actually Do have ai driven software but Yeah dang it I should just presume now That everything is an AI startup Everything has a little AI pixie dust Everything does except for Equity Artisanal handmade no AI podcasting just For you guys yeah I don't know I think We all agree it's a cool company I'll be Curious to see where it goes in the Future and see what else they're going To be doing in a couple of years well Now we've got to move on to break but After the break we'll be talking about Startup Bank Mercury and what it's Branching out into Next what's next in Tech that's not the Right question it's where Puerto Rico More than just a Tropical Paradise it's An Innovations Paradise where startups And Global players coexist in a vast and Vibrant ecosystem where Talent runs deep Highly skilled and bilingual plus the Island offers the most competitive tax Incentives in the US if you believe your Business can go anywhere Puerto Rico is

The place find out more at invest pr.org TechCrunch Aran so you've been writing a Lot about startup neobank Mercury so What's the latest update on them yeah so A few weeks ago they they announced that They were moving into personal banking So what that means is they started Actually about 5 years ago as mainly a Startup Bank digital bank for startups Rather offering banking services for These startups now let's be clear I have To always point this out when we talk About these Neo Banks they're not Actually Banks they're partnered with Banks but they are digital Banks now did I confuse you enough there the way that I think about this is that they're a Digital wrapper around someone else's Old school Trad Bank yeah right that's Why I have to just be clear they I call Them a Neo Bank not a bank yes anyway so A few weeks ago they said hey we're Getting into personal Banking and what They were doing with that is similar to Like what another company we talked About recently was doing until it Pivoted but they were like okay our Business customers they could be Personal clients so it's looking to Cater to you know a premium sort of Demographic then this week it said okay Well now we're going to be launching Software to layer on top of our business Banking accounts so that we can offer

Our banking customers bill pay spend Management invoicing so what that means Is effectively going head-to-head with The likes of brex and ramp and numerous Others in this space in the expense Management category as if we needed Another player but anyway Mercury said That this has kind of been its plan all Along was to build the the digital bank And then layer on the software on top of It so I think it's fine to have Competition but let's see how many of These can actually exist in the space so If I get this straight then most of Their clientele are other startup Founders and now they're looking to sort Of some stickiness to what their Services are and have these same folks Use numerous Services is that the idea Yeah I mean Kiren I think I think you Hit the nail on the head but Interestingly when I spoke to imod a CEO And co-founder I was curious about that Because they you know they kind of Advertise themselves as a startup bank But actually startups make up less than 40% of its customer base today because They've kind of Diversified a little bit Over the years but yeah I think that That's what exactly what they want to do Just with their customers in general is Add the stickiness and so they'll be Charging a subscription if their clients Decide to layer on the software they'll

Be charging a subscription so Mercury Will then now instead of just making Money off of interchange and that sort Of thing we'll make money through an Annual subscription fee and that will Range depending on the tier of the paid Plan from $35 to $350 a month okay so You know how we joke that every single Social networking service ends up being Exactly the same I really feel the same Way about like B2B fintech like of Course they're going to expand into bill Pay and try to offer more accounts what Do they want they want more deposits and More Total Money flowing through their Platform so in reality what we should do Is we should just map out each of the Major players the Brees the Rams the Mercuries and then figure out what the End point is and then just draw straight Lines and track their progress along That axis because they're all going to End up being the exact same thing with Just a different brand attached to them How much Innovation is there here really I mean Mercury says it has over 200,000 Customers sending $4 billion in outgoing Payments every month VI its platform so They're claiming there's plenty of money Movement already they're going to try to Make it easier for them so how are they Maintaining competitiveness so you can Do either do that on price so like lower Subscription fees so it's a better value

Or more services but to Alex's Point Seems like they're all starting to kind Of look the same so how are they going To win I guess we'll see I mean that This is just an increasingly crowded Space everyone's got an opinion about it Ramp for example entered bill pay I Think it was a year or two maybe two Years ago claims now that that's one of Its fastest growing segments brex got Into software 2 about two years ago and Claimed it was making a big push into The Enterprise so again these are huge Categories there's room for multiple Players but it is interesting just how Many startups are focused on this space So what is it going to take to create a Winner that I'm not sure well I think All these companies are very very cool But they should just go public already Because my God I'm bored of of them Raising money and doing this all Rex has Been around for like what 7,000 years Now you know ramp's a little younger but I mean dear God what more do they need It's time you just want more IPOs Alex I I didn't mean to show up today ill and Then just be a complete cranky pain in The ass but that does appear to be my Mood I'm sorry everybody I will try to Be fun again always fun anyway let's Let's move on there's actually a bunch Of m&a activity this week which you know We all thought there was going to be

More of that last year in the beginning Of this year so m&a turned out to be Surprisingly less what's the word Prevalent than we it was light light on The lighter side you know it was the Dinner salad of m&a activity right we Were all expecting more all expecting More of it but then this week we Actually had three Deals not one not two But three Deals so one of those was docu Sign acquiring an AI powered contract Management firm called lexian and then Samsung is going to acquire a French AI Ultrasound startup sonio for 92.7 Million and then we had the confirmation Of a deal that Marina tempkin actually Scooped a couple weeks back about aamai Acquiring no name so yeah three three Separate deals in one week what do you Guys think about that so the first thing I want to say is the aami noname deal is Interesting because it is a noname is an API security company and they raise at a Around a billion dollars in very late 2021 and so you know three years later And change we are now seeing what They're actually worth and the answer is A little under half of that so to me I Mean and no shame against no name Selling for 450 this is a big Accomplishment well done but I do think It goes to show just how how crazy Things were there for a minute and now We are seeing the result of those

Exuberant rounds now the right sizing I Guess right like the right sizing of Deals we saw so much crazy activity in Like 2020 2021 and now a lot of those Valuations have come back down to earth I'm just going to see how many cliches I Can put in a single sentence what I'm Curious about is and I don't know if any Of you have the answer which is I wonder How long these deals have been in the Works for because on the Venture side I'm finding that yes there are some big Deals happening like in AVS we just Talked about motional a minute ago and Then there was wave with a billion Dollars this week but it was hard to get Across a Finish Line those were taking a Long time how long were these Acquisitions taking is it is it sort of At that same trajectory where they're Happening but they're just taking Forever to happen the only thing I can Really say there is I don't get the vibe That we're seeing bidding wars so I'm Presuming that the pace of these deals Getting done is not lack aasal but Relaxed you know I don't think anyone's In a huge danger I mean there's two Things that drive a deal to go faster One is the company's about to die or two Everyone wants to buy it and so everyone You know gets busy with the checkbook These all feel much more relaxed so I I I don't think that they're moving too

Fast but also I don't get the idea that They're taking eight years to get done Yeah I mean one of the things about Donkey sign is that it's apparently Itself exploring a sale to private Equity when it made and when it made This deal and then something that caught My attention is Lexi and I hope I Pronounced that correctly they paid $165 Million for the company which had raised About $35 million in Venture Capital Prior so I was actually kind of Surprised by that because I feel like Lately when I've been reading about m&a Activity the acquisition price when it Is revealed is Either less or close to the amount of Money that a company raised so in this Case this company actually sold for you Know good amount more than it raised Yeah five 5x more or less but I think The reason that's the case is DocuSign Is like the best example of a point Solution that got very very big and now Needs to diversify so if you do e Signature why not also do contract Workflow automation with all those Signatures you have on your platform and If you're DocuSign you're worth a couple Billion splashing out for what is that You know a dozen dozen million more or Less I mean it's just not that much Money in terms of market cap terms so I I think it makes a lot of sense the

Problem though is if you just add a lot Of decals to your car you tend to have The same engine under the hood to make a A curen corus analogy here zoom zoom Vroom vroom thank you so I don't know Exactly how much this is going to help But I like the direction of the deal at Least it makes sense to me that way yeah Docu sign is interesting to me do we Know how many other Acquisitions they've Made at all over the last few years like Is this how they're diversifying is same Engine but just layering they acquired a Couple of companies one in 2018 spring CM a cloud platform for sales contract Management and then seal software in February 2020 companies specializing in Aid driven contract analytics AI pixie Dust and some extensions to the product Line who doesn't love it what more can You ask for in 2024 or before well we're Going to put the tech news aside for now Because we do have an announcement to Make our dear Alex whom we olor is Leaving Tech crunch which means he'll no Longer be on Equity it's an Understatement to say we're going to Miss Alex I've worked with Alex now Almost 7 years straight with the Exception of maybe a little bit less Than a year in there and you know he's Been the heart of the show for a long Time we're going to miss you Alex well The coolest and best part of equity has

Been the awesome people I've gotten to Work with over the years including this Lovely crew right now we have Kirsten And maranne we have Teresa behind the uh The dials and knobs and also on the edit But if you go back to 2017 when we Started it was Chris Gates ktie roof Matt Linley and myself and then over Time Connie loises was a host for a While Grace helped step in with editing We've had Kell we've had Maggie and of Course now Teresa and I'm not going to Go through every single person who's Been a co-host over the years cuz that Would take too long but I can't tell you How much I talk to the equity crew and How much of my life it is I'm going to Miss it immensely Alex you might be Leaving but I kind of feel like we can You know bring you on the show as a Special guest when you inevitably create Some media startup n we'll see about That but yes a big yes to that people Don't know here's a little bit of equity Trivia I joined the equity crew when we Started it but I didn't work for deck Runch at the time I worked for crunch Based news and so I used to just kind of Walk across Soma in San Francisco to the Old TC office and record it then run Back to work so I have a long history of Doing the show kind of on a uh casual Basis if you will from a professional Perspective so I will not be far and I'm

Going to be listening I'm going to be Cheering I'm just so proud that this Project I got to help start is going to Keep on going it's always been bigger Than any one person and we have so many Brilliant brilliant people that are Going to rock I happen to know who else Is joining the show down the road a Little bit and I'm super excited I'm Particularly going to miss your tank Tops Which I'm seeing now also I think that The listeners should know that he was Wearing a bathrobe so he's already like Coasting into retirement I don't know What's happening but stay tuned on that Let me tell you you've never seen me in A bath R before because I've never had Covid while trying to work before it's Quite the combination you look cozy you Look cozy this is just really an example Though of the dedication Alex has had to Equity over the years I mean here he has Co Has a a baby to help take care of too And he's still on here he's still Showing up reflective of just how he's Been over the years overall it's easy to Like to care a lot about a team like This I mean think about the people who Who did that who were no longer with us Like Katie roof was instrumental in Bringing on so many Venture Capital Guests early on Linley set the tone for

How fast we could talk on a recording Chris Gates was the glue that you know Held the initial show together and then Henry pette was the one who provided a Little bit of cover internally to to try This crazy idea when it wasn't the most Popular idea at Tech runch so yeah it's Been such a privilege and such a Pleasure and I the only thing I'm going To say is I'm just bummed that I will Not be able to be at disrupt on stage With the equity crew but I will be Cheering from like 20 ft away we're Going to miss you so much Alex besides Being brilliant you're just you know a Wonderful and kind human being and we Love you I love you too Marian we've Gotten to work together so much over the Years it's been a last several different Jobs in a row yeah and we're still going To yeah I'm not dying right and I'm Depending on where you go next I do 100% Plan on texting you every single time in S1 drop so we can talk about the numbers Because I am going to miss my numbers Guy I'm going to miss that of course Your enthusiasm for financials and all The wonderful analogies and the swearing I'm going to have to take that up I will Gladly take up that baton someone needs To carry that forward and this is a team Relay you know I don't know how many Episodes we've done north of 700 I think total to date so here's to 700

More and I can't wait to watch you guys Absolutely crush it but Maran even Though I am shuffling off into the night The show is not no equity is not going Anywhere we'll be back with a new Episode for you on Monday led by a Familiar voice Becca scac Becca as Regular listeners know is also the host Of our sister show found so don't forget To check that out as well until next Time you can follow Equity under the Handle at Equity pod onx and threads We'll talk to you Soon Equity is produced by Teresa Lo Conso with editing by Kell Bryce Durban Is our illustrator and we'd like to give A big thanks to our audience development Team and Henry pet who manages Tech Crunch audio products thanks so much for Listening and we'll talk to you next Time