Fintech Investing Is Not for the Faint of Heart

Please welcome mark fantino from index Ventures emilyn Shaw from flourish Ventures and Jillian Williams from Cowboy Ventures along with our moderator Ingred [Applause] [Music] London Hello hey can you guys hear me Okay good afternoon how was Shaq um okay So thanks for being here with me you Guys and for coming to disrupt um we'll Just go right into it so I this is my Second time on the stage today um and Earlier today I was interviewing Zach Parrot from uh from plaid and it was Kind of fun because he Like he launched his company at a um a Disrupt hackathon 10 years ago it's Amazing and so he's back here now it's Is incredible and he was what he was Saying was really interesting he said There was very very Scrappy time because It was basically impossible for him to Raise money like to you could not get in Through the door at a VC with a fintech Startup 10 years ago and obviously Things have changed quite a lot since Then so I kind of want to start out with That question like you how how are you Seeing things evolving and where are They now and that is to any one of you We've got Mark emilyn and Jessica and I Know any of you are totally well

Equipped to answer that question so just Launch In go for it all right yeah um loaded Question but I think uh you know I i' Almost argue that even rewind 10 12 Years ago almost the term fintech didn't Almost wasn't even a thing right it's Like there I'm a technology and I work Within the financial realm and now it's So ubiquitous and such an interesting Category that permeates everything from I'm a vertical SAS company that needs to Process payments to I'm pure Infrastructure to I'm a consumer focused Thing where I'm holding a card in my Hand and I think that's the that's the Most interesting part about fic is how Much it's permeated throughout our Everyday lives whether business or Consumer oriented um you know maybe one Comment and there's a lot to say in this So I'll keep it to one but uh I think The interesting part about where we are Now in the market is that even though You know maybe you could argue that There's a bit of a peak of fintech two Years ago a lot of people were building In the space so much Capital was flowing To that industry there are still a lot Of great startups being built in that Space and I think the the most fun part For me on the investing side is that I'd Say the the tourist investors that are Have now moved on to another hype driven

Category are gone so actually there's This interesting Supply demand Disconnect where we actually have I Think there are more interesting Companies to look at and less people Sort of really focused in believing in The space so it creates kind of a great Dynamic for I think people that truly Believe and and the trust in that space So I think if anything that's my bullish View on why it's an interesting space to Build in but you've separated out a lot Of the tourism from that persp I love The phrase tourist investor well look Following the tourist investor metaphor Um emilyn what do you think started to Gentrify the world of ftech um you know Like you said it didn't even exist as a Term um there were Financial Financial Startups um and I think of like Companies like stripe where where you Worked of course um you know that really I think must have changed the whole kind Of conversation about oh there is a Possibility here I think it was like That like vast success of PayPal which Technically wasn't even thought of as a Fintech weirdly um but I I think people Just thought the game was over right but What what made what do you think Happened that changed the whole scene Because I mean I feel like that's really Instructive right now because I feel Like we're in a bit of a bear period now

So like yeah I would argue you know the First generation of financial services You think about um got Financial engines Right you think about um some of the Massive transformation on the data side Yod others I think they into it right I Think when we think about what Financial Services was back then we were just Scratching the surface in terms of Really being to innovate really Meaningfully uh reimagining Infrastructure reimagining vertical sass Embedding Financial Solutions into some Of these platforms that have never had The ability to offer Financial Services With a compliance Focus so we're just in A different era of innovation that is I Think plat actually was one of the most Interesting of that in terms of Contributing to this idea that wow you Could just take and expose data sets Financial data sets and meaningfully Drive market adoption by vintex that Wouldn't otherwise not have any access To these and to be able to do it quickly And seamlessly and to me you know taking The yod approach but really upleveling That in a pretty considerable Way open The door to so many transformational Pieces particularly infrastructure in a Way that we hadn't seen before I think Before that you'd seen a lot more Innovation around direct to Consumer a Lot of innovation around you know

Challenger Banks and the like you know We were early in ch so seeing some of The the players happened then but I Think with each successive opportunity Infrastructure has really started to Open what I characterize is the next Generation of opportunities specifically Across payments lending um embedded Finance and to me that's where we're Starting to see a lot more Innovation Yeah so I mean Jessica I I jilan Sorry I said that backstage too didn't I It's all right why you must look like Someone I know I'm so sorry jul um so The um the thing about um like all of This was unlocked suddenly and you know Like he couldn't he was saying he Couldn't get the door open because Everyone was like how are you going to Work with banks there's just no way They'll ever work with you so there's no Credibility here I mean I feel like that Was that turned into a real kind of gold Mine for investors to really there were So many opportunities as you say there Were so many things to fix um nowadays Though would you say that like the sun Is set on that golden age or are we Still are are we still there not at all I think that there's just been a lot That shifted I think like from the Perspective of working with banks Actually I think it was last week that JP Morgan announced that they're

Actually working with gusto in terms of Powering a payroll through for their Small businesses so like I mean 10 years Ago you never would have thought that JP Morgan would have worked with a startup Like they were one of the most against Working with startups um and so I think That there is actually a lot more Appetite from the large incumbents in Terms of working with uh the startup Ecosystem because I think they've Realized a lot more of like the openness To actually working with tech and Realizing what some of the limitations Are in terms of them being able to do it Themselves and so I think there are a Lot of aspects of the ecosystem that's Continued to change in that d uh in that Aspect but I think sort of similar to The entire Tech ecosystem especially the Last two to three years like there was Just a huge bubble and obviously fintech Was part of that bubble as well just in Terms of the demand and money coming in And I think also like with coid like People couldn't go to Banks and things Like that and so fintech became a lot More mainstream as well especially on The consumer side so you saw huge Tailwinds in terms of growth of a lot of These platforms like emn said that chime Existed but honestly outside of some of The coasts probably a lot of people did Not know what chime was and then all of

A sudden it became a lot more of a Mainstream entity and so kind of to have A lot of those Tailwinds there was a lot More money just kind of going into Fintech more broadly and I think that Now that that's kind of coming back a Little bit um just in terms of both like The Tailwinds behind CO as well as just Understanding like what is actually Necessary in this space and what is Actually sort of like competitive like What do we need do we need another bank Versus these large entities or do we Need more infrastructure or do we need More like Enterprise tools and like kind Of figuring out what is actually needed Within the space versus what is kind of Nice to have so I think that's kind of Being figured out versus for a while it Was just like anything with that could Potentially being in fintech we could Put money into have people gotten a lot More conservative in that way investors I mean um actually even Founders um you Know are you seeing a kind of a a less Uh varied uh amount of ideas coming to You now um for investment as people try To kind of move to safer Moes and and And more sure bets or you know like it's Just really tough because I mean you Always you love to hear about you know You know Google was founded you know Like a you know really low point in in The tech uh technology Market in the

Industry I mean you know so you would Think that actually right now might be When you're seeing the most creative Ideas if you follow that through but I Mean what do you but then again I would Think that investors are much less keen On investing in this kind of thing as as Jillian just said so you know what where Is it sitting now do you think maybe one One thing I'll say on this is uh Jillian Mentioned understanding in as part of That and so I think one component here Is there's this fundamental Understanding of as a lot of the ftech Companies from a decade ago five years Ago are starting to both trade in the Public markets you their financials are Starting to be more publicly available And people are kind of piecing together What you know not all ftech companies Are created equal from a once some are SAS Revenue some are payments Revenue Some are lending businesses those are All fundamentally different business Models and so one of the things we're Seeing now to kind of bring it back to Your question is you know when you're a Founder and you're starting out I think We're emphasizing this hyper being be Very cognizant about the type of Business model you are driving towards And the space you're being in because That will lead to a way a different Fundamental set of way your company's

Valued so it doesn't mean that one Business is worse than another it just Means you have to have that in mind as You build um you know one thing we're Pushing our Founders on is you know make Sure as you you know you you can execute 7 years at 110% and do everything you Wanted to do but make sure you Understand how your company will Ultimately be valued because it's Building a company is an execution bet And evaluation bet not just the former And so I think that's we're seeing a lot More of that being kind of uh uh split Out early on now too and I think it Focus I think the second point is uh There's this hyper kind of Focus right Even you know we have some companies in Our portfolio that may be you know Raised around or two ahead of where they Actually were from a product Market fit Stand point in 2021 so the one thing one Of the main things we're telling them is Hey you know pretend like you have a Third of what you have on your current Balance sheet and you're and you're a Series a business what is the one thing You would do if the other you know $30 Million didn't exist and that's kind of Forced this this you know you're kind of Force functioning them into the world we Live in now which is you know in a Market you have to be hyper cognizant And more profitable profitably focused

Early on right now are you demanding More profitability out of your portfolio Companies I mean you're so early St yeah I would say I would not say demanding Profitability but I think there was a Mindset of we can kind of care about Earning money later focus on the Customer for now and care about un Economics at some point later and I Think that that is definitely shifted I Think something that we we as a firm Have like kind of always focused on like Making sure that you could actually make Money off of something but I think as Ecosystem that's become a lot more Important especially just kind of from Day Zero and so I mean if you looked at A lot of for example like consumer Fintech there was a huge trend for a While that like figure out any way or Even B2B as well and some way but like Any way you can make money off of Company off of customers without Actually directly charging them so even In some like vertical SAS um it's let's Not charge them for the SAS have being Free as the wedge in and like let's just Make money off of payments like that can Scale incredibly well however that's Very volume dependent and so if there's A downturn and for some reason like Businesses are spending a lot less money You don't have that safety net of kind Of the constant um consistent cash flow

That's coming in and that can fluctuate Um drastically so kind of to Mark point Of like the different business models That can change uh a lot and really Change how you're being measured and Also in terms of margins like a payments Margin looks very different from a SAS Margin and so kind of just kind of Thinking about those considerations when Figuring out like what your business Model is and then also I think it says Something personally around like if your Customer actually willing to pay I think That means there's a lot more value in Your product if they're willing to pay Versus like yeah I'll take something if It's free for me yeah I think the whole Kind of move away from everything free I Don't know there hasn't really been that Much of it in fintech anyway I mean I Think that it's always been much more Closely banked To banking basically um okay um so I Would like to ask you guys a kind of General question about fintech investing Um which is Without referring to Ai ai you can't you can't answer AI um What's a hot area for you right now What's what's what are you looking for Now and we had a little chat backstage And um the the takeaway we got was Boring is big but yeah the you know the Important things that are like may sound

Mundane but anyway where are you guys Going maybe emilyn yeah I mean we are a Fintech focused fund so obviously we're Very thematic and we think a lot of Things are quite exciting uh we played a Lot of bets around infrastructure and The Innovation infrastructure whether That be through payments or through uh Lending credit Etc Ed Finance more Importantly um I think we stay very Excited around B2B payments uh very Excited around vertical SAS specifically Those uniquely positioned to embed Financial Services more readily um Certainly anything transforming Legacy Infrastructure God knows that we are Still very much working in Cobalt and The processor and the core is still in Dire need of Transformation uh and then all sorts of Data applications I I would say I would Be remiss in saying that we are in an Interesting time I could be biased Because I have quite a few genz in my House but I do think that demographic in Particular is behaving differently They're mobile F first they um behave And expect very different things from Financial services and we might very Well be in a position to kind of Reimagine a new direct to Consumer Offering inch as well I think you're Absolutely right about that actually There's been very little of that so far

Anyway do you have anything to say Julian I'd say what's a hot area for you Now not AI yes a lot of it's not too Dissimilar from that we focus a lot on B2B side so vertical SAS um a lot of the Like unsexy very boring Tech Infrastructure as well um have been Spending a lot of time in sort of the Compliance space fraud risk Etc things That are selling to Banks and really Helping them upgrade their legacy Tech Um so yeah really kind of like the the Backbone of financial services um that's Kind of a lot of what's been interesting To us okay I think so one one area uh Spent a lot of time in the last maybe 12 18 months is a this is what we're Talking Supply supply chain Logistics Manufacturing there's a lot of Interesting fintech applications within That World um I think one instance is Actually if you think about FICO scores Right so we have a we have a company in Our portfolio that's raising right now That's focuses on a wholesaler that Sells to think of like you know ABC Chinese restaurant that person buys from 10,000 units from Coke and then they Need to go buy you know a bunch of Plastic straws from someone else and What's interesting is the plastic straw Company is going to call up Coke and go Hey does this person pay their bills on Time should we extend them net 30 net 60

Net 90 days and they do that same thing Three to five times in order to Basically underwrite an SMB super broken And friction heavy process for a variety Of reasons that I'm sure you can all Imagine so if there's a way to kind of Create and amalgamate that data into a Score that's a super interesting real so That's that's one flavor of like I think An application of data and fintech in Supply chain Logistics and that's not Something I'm familiar with actually What you've just described I can't think Of another startup that's doing that Sort of thing so that's cool yeah yeah Yeah that's interesting okay well now I'm going to turn the question around How important is AI right now because I Feel like it's on everyone's tongue it's A little bit overheated and Buzzy in Every vertical um is it figuring strong In how you're evaluating potential Fintech Investments can I be a little bit Provocative yes please so I mean I've Been in don't throw water at me I won't Throw water she did say she wanted us to Disagree we haven't disagreed yet on Stage my apologies um but you know what I I've been investing since January 1st Of 2000 AI has been around for a very Long time the difference between where We are today is computing power we can Fundamentally unlock and unleash the

Ability to have generative AI be more Meaningful and so it's not as if a lot Of these companies didn't have ai in Their in their wheelhouse already in Fact many of our companies whether it's Like alloy and their reg Tech and kyc Space or it's in the insure check side Of the house a lot of them are super Core to their Solutions I think the Question is you know how is gener AI Being applied more broadly now and we're Seeing it more back office for us it's More like you know how do you automate How do you optimize efficiency how are You engaging more quickly with customers Um all of which are important but it's Not clear that there's going to be a Standalone AI specific fake use case and That there certainly will be more Broadly but I think it's the kind of the Juries out in terms of how much will be Embedded within the existing Infrastructure players and providers and Direct a consumer for that matter Certainly a lot more interesting Solutions can be provided with Generative Ai and versus a standalone Platform that really is able to kind of Serve the needs of the this um the Community yeah Julian yeah I agree I Mean we have a company called Vic AI That we invested into probably three Years ago um and so yeah to your point Like it's definitely not new and that's

Something that we think is very Interesting because like they're an Accounting firm that uses AI to make uh To to like make your data a lot more Efficient useful actually for um for CFO Suites and so that's something where It's like they've been training off of This data for years now and so that's Something that we think where it's like Especially when it comes to private data Like they have a pretty good size Advantage at that point um and that's Something that they just keep doubling Down on but to that point also is Like we've seen a number of companies Within the fin Tech space using AI that Like sure can be interesting but it's More so of like features of something And it's hard to really see them being Standalone products and I think or Standalone companies and I think that's What's been a little bit more Challenging and really what's been more Interesting is speaking to our companies And hearing like how much more scale They're getting in terms of using AI to Like create content for marketing or to Make their engineering teams a lot more Efficient and I think that's been really Useful versus just kind of like the St On companies that's great to hear Actually because I feel like that would Be bad if people just kept trying to Pedal this idea that they're like the

Next big AI company that would be bad Maybe the so maybe I'll take a step when We think about AI to right you have to Be careful in the same way you have to Be careful with fintech where fintech Can be sort of a an application of Fintech within a vertical SAS company or Infrastructure company so that you have To kind of break down AI into a variety Of things I think to have this Conversation and so if you have the the Bottom of the stack is you have a subset Of you know there's value will AC to a Small subset of model providers right so It's open AI we invested in a company Called coher anthropic Etc and there's Going to be a few of those then there You have this middle layer of we help You transform or extract or do something With that data to make it more useful And we invested in compan called scale a While back that sort of does that across AV companies uh you know language Processing Etc then you kind of get to Where some of these fintech companies And use cases are in this top layer of You know I can take what the model I can Embed that model use the data from like A middleware provider then I do Something with this right and so I think You in a lot of these cases the Incumbents with distribution I think one Of you was sort of alluding to this will Likely win in most cases like right

We're investors in intercom intercom Rolls out Pilot We invested on the Accounting side they have a pretty Interesting use case for AI because they Already have pre-existing distribution So then you kind of go okay if I Eliminate you know distribution Advantage what is left as an actual Investable business there's a smaller Subset there's a lot of interesting ones But I think that's a good framework that You have to use to figure that out one Area that's particularly interesting to Me if you run that calculus is um risk Mitigation and insurance I don't know How this is going to manifest itself but This is sort of we started talking about Maybe a week ago but you know if you if You think about how cyber has grown over Time you know you had companies like Carriers like Munich re Travelers Etc That started to dedicate portions of Their book to cyber Insurance attacks One of the biggest holdups for Enterprises deploying models are are Sort of like the risk mitigation side of It now and if you look actually Munich Re spun up their own AI sort of focused Carrier you know Insurance product maybe About a year and a half ago I think We're in the very very early days of What that looks like because I couldn't Even tell you exactly how I'd underwrite Model deployment right now but there's

Something in that world that could be Interesting as sort of an investable Opportunity in the future yeah I would Say that that kind of a company probably Is one of the few that I would say is a Fintech AI company too whereas the Others just becomes a as you say a Feature of the of the product I will say One of the challenges especially around Like the application of AI and fintech And it depends obviously the application But like is especially with like things Being regulated is that with AI like you Can't just have these decisions made in A black box because then something goes Wrong need to be able to understand like How the decision was made um so if it's Like applications within fra compliance Or even in Insurance like if something If a mishap happens and they need to go Back and audit it like if there's just No real way to actually figure out why Decisions were have came to if a Decision came to that way like then that Becomes a huge issue um I would take it A step further which is and I totally Agree with you I would say that you know In general I think where people have Been reluctant to use a lot of these Models is because you know pii Particularly in a regulated industry so You think about like can we protect the Data sets can we ensure that we're Actually using them in a secure manner

Are we changing the underlying efficacy Of that data well you know when we over Synthesize so to speak so are there ways To keep it safe and then can we audit What has been changed how does it get Reinjected the metadata reinjected back In and so that's an area that could be An interesting use case particularly as You think about not just today's set of AI models but gener AI models but the Future set of AI models and wanting to Be actually you know optimized across a Number of them for a variety of cases Yeah yeah and maybe the one the one Other thing I'll say on this too is Actually we we we actually took a survey Of all of our fintech companies recently Saying you know how do you think about Ai and how are you using this and the One you know there was a very big Striation between internal use cases and External use cases and majority of the Use cases were pure productivity on the Internal side right like can I make my Compliance analyst faster can I make can I help do sort of like fraud analysis Better for the things that need Q manual Qas and and all of that leads to Increased Top Line but it's not a Customer facing AI touch Point Necessarily because of the Privacy well Yeah by the way I'm I'm writing about a Company for a massive funding round for Not not a fintech but a um like a

Healthtech company for tomorrow tomorrow I didn't later in the week and I think That's a really interesting model um if You could apply it to fintech which is That that also has massive privacy data Issues um and interestingly this company Is building their very much from the Ground up their own model language model They're not using anything from anywhere Else and that's partly as this way of Ring fencing what they have and then It's never customer facing uh consumer Facing it's something that's used to Augment um clinicians basically right um So it just that I I feel like that's the Kind of thing you can imagine in fintech Um in like a financial model where it's Something to help somebody who's working With um a customer rather than replacing The person who's working with the Customer yes um yeah okay so what's Quite interesting here is that none of You mentioned um in the first question Um Crypto which I've always thought of as a Very finchy kind of area um and is but Is like you know thought of as its own Salient space you guys looking at that At all I noticed that you had one crypto Company listed in your bio um that you That you partner with Jillian but in Fact they've pivoted so they're not even Doing that's Ian I think um we have it Together I I was like oh they do crypto

I looked it up no they are no longer Doing crypto yeah they are not doing Crypto but I'd say like my thesis for Crypto always is was kind of like crypto 2.5 is where it's like I have never been Someone who's like all in everything's Going to be web3 but it's sort of like Do I think that people are intrigued Enough there is going to be a there There and so what is kind of the Infrastructure what are the tools that Are necessary for that space if it's Going to exist to make sure that like Exists properly And in the most efficient and safest way And so looking at tools that kind of That help to whether it's move money Efficiently like I I never believe that Everybody should custody their own money Because like that is a recipe for Disaster like I have lost money and I Think of myself as a pretty educated Person and efficient person Technologically and I have definitely Sent money to scammers um and so Thankfully not a lot but um I think There are ways in which is like finding Investment That help with that kind of Infrastructure around that and that was Kind of that's kind of always been my Thesis I think right now is definitely a Tough time to be investing into the Space because I believe it's going to be

A low within crypto for some time and so Part of our job is also is not only Finding interesting companies but also Timing matters as well um because There's a finite amount of money that You put in and then have to make sure That they can at least especially early Stage get to that next round and prove Out metrics by that time and so Um I think timing right now is a Difficult thing to really predict within The crypto Market yeah em I agree 100% Specifically in the US um we have a we Have a global fund but I would say in The US specifically I think we've Definitely been kind of the two and a Half this idea of onboarding how do you Create the pick and shovels to enable um You know crypto and blockchain in Particular when in when it's appropriate I think in the Emerging Markets where You know the financial institutions are Much less stable and this idea of Remittance is pretty core I think that's Where you'll see more emergence of you Know stable coins and crypto being a More natural point of innovation and we Have made bets there and we found those To be quite frankly slightly more Dependable than even some of the you Know the resident currency in in part Due to the volatility yeah so I have a Slightly left field question for the Final one for you guys um it's really

Funny I was thinking about like what are The big things that have happened in Ftech this year that I'd love to bring Up and you know I couldn't believe it But you know Silicon Valley Bank Collapsed this year it seems like so Long ago right it was such a big deal And then it finished and everyone just Moved on and like no one talks about it It's like doesn't it feel like it Happened a million years ago it was like Six months ago um okay so what was Interesting about that was how um a Couple of um fintech startups swooped in Potentially to try to pick up the pieces You saw bra and mercury and all of that Um I guess my question for you guys is From the like the investment point of View of where you are is there can you See like first of all just what are your Thoughts on all of that and is there any Kind of Hangover from that that is Impacting where you guys are sitting in Terms of companies that you're looking At or evaluating um is there opportunity There for banks to do um for sorry for Fex to come in in that area and and and Play in that really big kind of banking Space Yeah you know I think from a lending Perspective there's huge gap that's Certainly been left as a result of svb And others I think you're starting to See some of these longer smaller Banks

Trying to think about a role that they Can play here um and and step up I think It's just hard though there is a certain Risk level and a risk tolerance that I Think they need to be mindful of and I Think that has implications in terms of Startups I think from our perspective Particularly in fintech there aren't you Know I think as we think about Operational excellence and efficiency I Think the idea of taking on Deb that Certainly at the earliest levels is Probably not what we would be inclined To advise anyhow and so it really does Force more of a alignment in terms of Discipline in a way that we didn't have As much of that um you know control or Influence when there was so much Accessible to them so I think in some Ways it aligns us a little bit more Certainly with companies that have Assets and I do think there's a lot more Innovation around lending and Asset-based financing for companies and They're taking advantage of that but I Think on a relative scale the access of Capital the scale that svb and others Provided just p in comparison and there Will be some interesting um banks that Will surface as a result to take Advantage of of the opportunity do you Think it's maybe overall like pain it Was painful when it happened but do you Feel like maybe overall it's healthier

For the ecosystem that that's been kind Of scrutinized and and removed and and Rethought I think it was important to Have um an evaluation of the Fundamentals and I think it was Important not to get caught up in the Euphoria um and and Hyper growth and it Did instill a lot of discipline it was Also quite hurtful for the community Though I would say you know be remiss in Saying that Tech didn't have a massive Impact in losing a player like svb Particularly given the important role They played in kind of supporting the Ecosystem did it did it did it impact Any of you and and your your kind of Funds or your your your portfolio Companies Much no I mean I guess I would say that Like mainly the hang of I think it Doesn't necessarily affect fintech more Than any other sector in terms of to Your point like access to debt and Access and so like a lot of companies That maybe had debt before or maybe were Planning on raising debt like that just Makes it a little bit harder there's a Lot more scrutiny around it that's true Of like any company now um and it Changes just like how other banks in General think about tech but like the Fundamentals of like what happened with Svb was not necessarily purely because Of tech um and I think it couldn't I

Mean First Republic obviously other ones Like it's not necessarily unique to the Tech market and so I think there is just Kind of Hangover broadly of like sure Are we've like it seems like the banking Sector has moved on from it is it like Fully in the clear especially as like Interest rates continue to rise like Potentially not but like it seems like Everything's okay for now knock onun Wood um and so I think there is this Like interesting state that I think we Live in and this is a very different Topic but like in terms of this like Uncertainty of like our Fuller macro Environment right now and I think like That kind of sits within within all of It but I think overall like everything Was kind of safe and so I I like our Portfolio companies yeah there was like A weekend of Hysteria and having no idea What was going to happen but like yeah Our portfolio canies it end up okay yeah That's good okay we're actually right Out of time um it was lovely to have you Guys thank you so much thanks very much Thanks everybody thank you thank [Music] You