Every startup has AI in their pitch deck — and maybe they should | Equity Podcast

This episode is presented by invest Puerto Rico if you believe your business Can go anywhere Puerto Rico is the [Music] Place hello and welcome back to equity Techcrunch's Flagship podcast about the Business of startups I'm marann aav and This is our Wednesday episode where we Hone in on a trend in the startup world And dive deep today we'll be talking About a number of topics including the State of consumer investing the IPO Market and what it may look like going Forward this year and the overall Fundraising environment joining us for Today's conversation is Forerunner Ventures partner and founding member of The female mentorship Collective all Raise Yuri Kim Yuri welcome to the show We're so happy to have you hi marann Thanks for having me yeah I know we're Thrilled you've got a really interesting Background I know that prior to becoming A VC you were an operator is that right Yes for a short period of time but I uh Had the entrepreneurial bug a long time Ago before it was really this Cool yeah but so you've been a Forerunner for 12 years now 12 years my 12 year anniversary was in May early May Wow congratulations yeah it's that's Impressive yeah it's a long time thank You so over the years you've invested in Lots of companies spanning a bunch of

Different Industries including health And wellness travel personal care you're The chairperson of the board at Aura is That right that's correct okay yeah I I Have to just say play a little bit of Fang girl here I I have an AA ring Woohoo get it yeah we can maybe talk More about that later but you also sit On the boards of a number of other Companies called the farmers dog Curology A-frame juny and then Forerunner itself has invested in a lot Of interesting companies including chime The Neo Bank which of course me being in The fintech space I have followed and Then Pros which is in the hair care Space and then Sunday a d Toc lawn care Company that I think the founder was Actually recently on our sister show Found how awesome cter yeah great yeah I Know it's always fun to listen to the Portfolio companies just sort of outside In because it's such a illustrious group Of Founders that we have so much respect For but also such a wide range of Problems that they're solving and I Think it goes to a lot of you know what Our Focus area is which is just really Thinking about how our lives are Changing as consumers and ultimately What problems we need solved and then The companies that we want to back solve Those things whether that's products or Services or whether that's enablement

Tools and SAS businesses the business Model and the sort of functional area of The market matters less than the problem That we're trying to solve so any of Those I kind of go into what we were Thinking about when we made those Investments but really the highest level Is to hopefully make our lives better For consumers yeah I mean I think Consumer investing is an interesting Topic right now because there are a lot Of people that really believe in the Consumer space right now and then there Are others I think that have kind of Backed away from it I I saw at post Sorry on X I think your colleague Kristen green tweeted how last year VC Firms distanced themselves from the Category and just 7% of seed Capital Went to the consumer space yeah how did That compare to the year before do you Know You know I don't know the exact numbers But it definitely felt like a hard pivot Because there was a whole wave of so Many investors whether new firms or new Partners who were super excited about Putting money into the consumer Landscape obviously there was a very Large runup kind of during covid and Coming out of covid with a lot of Consumer dollars being at play and then Just a really hard crash when interest Rates started Rising people were

Starting to pull back in General on Investing and then there was a flight Towards what feels safer you know will SAS feel safer Enterprise feels safer And we as consumer investors have been Through thick and thin up and down and So it's felt like well it's it's Actually kind of nice because now with a Little less attention we could have the Time that we always like to have to get To know our you know potential Investments and really think through What the strategy is consumer is an easy Place for people to kind of tourist in And out and I think to stay longterm and Believe that ultimately the dollars that Consumers control are are what runs this World And if you can find the right problems To solve and really think ahead about Where consumers are prioritizing their Time and their energy and really what They're going to spend their dollars on I think it ends up being a lot more Sticky than most would think and Kirsten And my partner Jason had actually Launched this large consumer survey an Annual report earlier this year and Really it was to demystify this negative Sentiment around consumer like everyone Loves to poo poo on it and just say Everything is so much better with Enterprise and so much better with SAS Businesses but you know we wanted to

Look at that data and say is it really That much better and so they had it Analyzed I think it was 12,000 startups That raised series B funding since 2010 Just to see like where do that coort of Companies sus out consumer versus Enterprise and do they end up being Better as the cohort of Enterprise Companies versus consumer and ultimately We actually found that the consumer Bucket was more likely to go public After raising that series B they were More likely to you know go public after Kind of reaching a certain threshold Enterprise likes to call it the rule of 40 but ultimately I think they found That over 60% of the consumer businesses Had reached that rule of 40 versus only I think it's 45% for Enterprise that's interesting they were Just as likely to trade at 10 times Revenue and like trade higher at the Time of IPO and so which kind of went Through all the metrics you would want To look at to say well is consumer Actually systemically a worse place to Invest and ultimately we we found that It wasn't and then you know I think There's a question of like how do you Define a consumer business and some People still think like a consumer Business is a company that sells shoes And you know we see consumer really Differently really thinking about where

The consumer pays for a product or Service or an experience where a Business relies on customer engagement Whether it's B2B or BC but that's you Know Shopify it's Etsy it's it's skims It's yeah It's broad it's a firm yeah I mean That's a good point and I I saw also That when kren tweeted about the amount Of money going into the space last year She had mentioned or referenced that Report and she noted that the consumer Company performance did outpace Enterprise which it is kind of I Wouldn't say a surprise but a little bit Because I do think consumer got kind of A bad WAP over the past couple of years One thing that I am curious about as you Mentioned there are different Definitions of consumer but certainly it Feels like there might be some spots That feel a little brighter than others And others that maybe have not quite Fared as well what would you say are Kind of those bright or weaker spots Within the space I mean if you're Thinking more around the recent time Frame we've certainly seen that maybe 10 You know 12 years ago when we first Started investing really there was the Earliest proliferation of social media Behavior and engagement and access and What that did was it opened up a Distribution Channel and new brands new

Companies could come to Market and reach Their customers in a way that before if You didn't have a store or you didn't Have a big retailer partnership you just Couldn't get into the hands of the Customer and so there were you know Directed consumer brands that came up of All types whether it was warie Parker Which you know is now public Dollar Shave Club bobos you know a lot of our Early Investments were really in backing Founders that were bringing new things To life through a distribution channel That allowed for marketing unlock and Really kind of an exponential growth Rate over the last couple years sorry to Interrupt you but yeah what stands out To me to what you just pointed out are These are products they're not new Products like prescription glasses have Been around forever razors have been Around forever it was just a different Way of selling them right it was a Different way of selling them and it Really was a different way of talking to The consumer because back then I mean It's a little bit of a history moment But you know to buy a razor you had to Go to a wall grains or a CVS and the Razors are behind the counter in a Locked box so I mean it's not exactly a Convenient way to buy something that you Use every single day and so when Dollar Shave Club came to Market it was saying

Hey that sucks why don't we have a Better experience that's more convenient And by the way why is it just Gillette You know why isn't there a brand that Speaks to a younger sort of just a Different vibe and a different ethos and So when Dollar shap came to the market It was funny it was irreverent it was Fresh and I think the consumers whether They were young teens all the way up to You know people in their 50s men in Their 50s everybody could get behind a Brand that felt fun and one that felt Like more connected to who they are as People and so you really started to see That it was actually the ability to Build a brand that was more resonant With consumers versus historically it Was like the brands were built in this Ivory Tower with an agency who was going To tell you what beautiful look like and Tell you what to wear and tell you how To act and I think that was the turning Point when social media really became This new unlock of distribution direct a Consumer where you had a two-way Dialogue with your customers and it felt Like you were you know when I messaged Into glossier it would be like oh that's That's like my girlfriend you know my Makeup my makeup obsessed girlfriend or You know like best friend not L'Oreal Which feels like a corporate sort of Entity that you know feels very distant

From us and so you know just going back To the question that you had like that Was really a wave back in the day and Then now when you think about where the Consumers focused social is sort of a Way of life that's not new obviously There's plenty of challenges with the Advertising platforms and you know the Algorithms and the Privacy changes that Have happened over the last handful of Years and so I think a lot of businesses Have had to iterate on how to reach Their customers and how to build better Relationships and so then our Investments have been more towards other Topics that people care about so a lot In consumer health and wellness that's You know what's on everyone's mind Particularly coming out of covid and Thinking about Gosh you know health is so precarious Like how can I improve my sleep how can I think about longevity how can I think About not getting sick instead of just Fixing myself when I'm already sick um And so we've made a bunch of investments In that and then we've really spent a Lot of time thinking about investments In empowering solopreneurs and small Businesses because you know they've Really been advancing digitally as well And you may be slower to make that shift Than some of the bigger companies that Have more resources but at the same time

It's really exciting especially when we Think about you I'm sure we'll hit AI a Little bit later but know we think about Ai and how much efficiency can be had Then a one or two person company can Actually do all the things that it has To do thinking about marketing or Customer service or you know just Relationship management with all their Clientele and so we've made a bunch of Investments in thinking about how do we Use technology to power solar Preneurship in an effective way to sort Of enable kind of the new American Dream It's not just about coming to this Country and starting a shop that shop is Really now digitally powered or has to Be digitally conceived you know you can Still have a brick and mortar store but You have to have a social profile you Have to understand marketing you have to Understand so many different things yeah And so we feel like there's so much to Be done there but I think that's where It go back to the definition of consumer Is so many different business models you Cover fintech that's consumer I mean That's taking care of my money chime was One of our first investments in fund one In 20 gosh I think it was 2013 And you know originally that started off As a fun shopping card that was meant to Give you a place where you could save Some money that you could use to spend

And get loyalty points and ultimately it Morphed into really a Neo bank that Built a brand that stood for this new Consumer in this new really digital Forward way and that's before City and Chase and all the big Banks actually had Good apps I mean their apps were Horrible back then and it's been a Decade now so every it's been Interesting watching it evolve for sure I I've been fascinated by its Evolution Over the Years what's next in Tech that's not the Right question it's where Puerto Rico Where an entrepreneurial ecosystem Pulses with connectivity capability and Possibility where the most competitive Tax incentives in the US FASTT track Success and hard work is rewarded with Sunsets and turquoise Waters if you Believe your business can go anywhere Puerto Rico is the place invest pr.org [Music] TechCrunch I'd like to talk a little bit About the overall fundraising Environment clearly we all know that Things have changed pretty dramatically Since 2020 2021 when things were nuts Right and there were just it was Actually just way too much money being Deployed and we all kind of knew it was Not sustainable just just too many Checks being written yeah way too high Valuations right just crazy as one

Investor had called it I think they said 2021 was the party 2022 was the hangover And I I feel like we're still not we're Still maybe a little bit hung over but I Mean funding is down but I feel like It's picking back up this year compared To last would you agree with that I mean As a firm are you investing less or more Than last year and how does that compare To a few years ago and just overall like In the whole landscape are you seeing More Venture capitalists being willing To write checks than they were in 2022 For example I think the data would Suggest yes I was listening to Henry the CEO of ca's interview with tech wrench a Couple months ago and definitely the Data suggests that it's back up to your 2019 2020 levels which actually used to Be considered a great time it's just in Comparison to not being up to 2021 Levels that it feels like we're still The Watermark but I think 2021 if we Really are honest there was a lot of Pent up demand because 2020 just halted All activity for so long then we were Home working from you know zooms and I Don't know about you but I literally Didn't leave my seat from 7:00 a.m. till 7 p.m. and the calls were back to back To back to back to back so I could Literally talk to like 10 Founders in a Row and do diligence you know 20 Diligence calls in one week and we could

Get to our answer because nobody was Traveling everybody was available and so I think the frenzy was not only Structural from a position of capital Being there but also structural because People were like just in front of their Computers working 247 and it led to a Higher velocity of processing of things What challenges firms then is even if Those deals are all great you don't have The benefit of just time time for each Of these early stage Investments to grow Time for everybody to digest and kind of Go through their different Cycles all of The Cycles are happening at the same Time because you made all the Investments in one year and here at Foreigner I mean I think we made 21 Investments in 21 and typically we make 10 or 12 so there was definitely a Strong you know Pace that year that Ultimately now we're back to again you Know similar to maybe what the market is Feeling but back to normal which feels Like a good 8 to 10 or you know 8 to 12 We have four Investment Partners here And so each person doing a handful of Deals a year feels like a sustainable Place so it feels good it also feels Like the processes have the time to Fully kind of materialize you can get to Know your teams you can do the back and Forth that you need on on different Diligence questions of course AI is

Probably a sector where it's getting the Same frenzy as there were some companies Getting that that energy in 21 but it's Okay there's always a topic dour and I Think AI is such a big one and such an Exciting one that will change the market That it's understandable that there's a Lot of energy there and and we're Investing a lot there as well but you I Feel good about out Pace at least being Back to something that is normal and It's sustainable and it's probably the Right pace you raise a good a couple of Good points there I wanted to touch on For one AI it's hard though to not be Skeptical I mean I think there's so many Startups that feel like they have to Mention AI somehow in their product or Their offering or they're not going to Be attractive to investors how as an Investor are you able to kind of cut Through the noise and see where the Companies who are touting AI features Are really truly doing something Innovative or just kind of using it as a Way to make themselves look like they're On the AI bandwagon you're you're Hitting the nail right on the head Because every deck every pitch has AI in There and the reality is it should not That it's a reason to invest but what Company out there isn't thinking about How to leverage AI to create Efficiencies in their business I mean

You'd be living under a rock if you Weren't thinking about is there Marketing efficiency out there is there Customer service or sort of sales Efficiencies out there like yes you're Going to leverage AI in any way you can To deliver a service better cheaper Faster we think about it from the Consumer investment Side in two primary Ways one where the business ultimately AI is the center point of the experience Like chat gbt there's no experience Other than AI That's the whole thing Right speechify one of our portfolio Companies perplexity like there's a Bunch of companies that are really Thinking about either infrastructure Layer or kind of llm layers like really Foundational layers where there is Nothing other than the AI as their Business model and so that's really Exciting time and people are investing Deep in that then there's businesses Where the AI or the sort of Promise of AI enables a business or service to work We have a few that we've invested in That are you know attacus is in the Legal space really allowing for people To get access to disability payments and And different sort of legal payments in A faster way a lot of that is AI powered On the execution side but we don't bill It as hey consumer we're an AI lawyer Like right that's not helpful right you

Just want to know that you are getting a Great service and how we execute that Hopefully is as efficient as possible we Have one called duck bill which is in The personal assistant space and I'm Sure you know we've seen tons of Personal assistant ideas come up of the Last decade plus ultimately it's just a Hard problem to solve even having a Human assistant is hard cuz you need to Let that person know enough about you And your tastes and your needs and your The way you think to be effective and That takes time but we are excited that AI could start to shorten the time frame Of that learning and then be able to do Transactions quicker than a person could Be able to do and and many people can't Afford you know personal assistant or Executive assistant and so that's a way That AI can really disrupt a human need Or a person's need so we we see that There are such valuable ways where AI Can make a difference in letting us Company deliver a magical service for a Unit economic model that works you know Before people would pitch this and You're like great that works but how do You make money right it's like you know You just can't make money like that if You have to hire 100 people to call All Around Town to make your reservations Like that's never going to work and so I Think that's where we get really excited

To think today we're still a little bit Out from like really getting to the Consumer experience layer of AI and how It's going to impact Our Lives you know There's certainly plenty of Opportunities to chat with an AI I me we Were just doing around our team all Picked a very you know a different AI Buddy to talk to for the week and just Figure out like what is this like what Is this engagement is this real is it Helpful or does it make you feel more Lonely you know that would be Interesting I can imagine yeah but today It feels weird tomorrow or for our kids It could be totally normal to chat with The AI probably which is a little a Little bit scary I have to admit because I feel like already our kids are just so Much more digitally focused than we were But when we start to like have less and Less true human interaction I I have to Admit it does make me a little bit Uncomfortable but it does but now I I Wanted to touch base before we go Further into another topic about the Early stage landscape I'm curious Because I as a reporter am getting a ton Of pitches lately of course that are Focused on the seed stage and Seed deals Seem to be bigger than than they used to Be later stage deals less common yeah Series a and series B probably also less Common series a even less so than b um

What what do you think about that why Are we I mean I I don't think seed Funding is necessarily up but we are Seeing bigger seed deals and I feel like We're seeing more of them than more of Those middle stages what do you think About that so the Dynamics at play are You still have a lot of seed investors Out there who have capital and Ultimately they're making Investments Then you have a bit of a crunch because The a landscape is starting to require More traction in general I think that The investor landscape is requiring or Wanting to see more traction more proof Points for whatever the raise is and so You can get at that a couple different Ways you either raise more in the Earlier round so you can get farther or You got to do the C+ A+ B+ whatever that Stub round ision and I think what we saw Was that in 21 a lot of people raised a Bunch of money in 202 if you were quick to act you could Still have that bucket of money because You cut your team because you saw the Riding on the wall and you're like wow This world is different we need to save For you know kind of the the cold storm That's coming and so we did see that There was not a lot of fundraising Coming out in the later stages and in The earlier stages you really only came Out if you had to otherwise you died

Yeah you know you just you weren't going To get that funding so you come out of That now 23 and 24 it's a little bit Back to like a little bit more normal But again if you don't have a good Business coming out of those years You're not growing but you're break even There isn't a real business for venture To look at you know because we're not in The business of looking at break even Businesses we're looking at what are Breakout potential businesses and so I Think that's where a lot of companies Are somewhat getting stuck and when That's the landscape investors go Towards hey bigger firms are happy to do Earlier Investments because it's a small Dollar check for the relative risk if it Goes away then you'll lose 2 million Bucks to their overall fund size yeah Yeah if your normal check is 20 and you Put two or three or five in a seed round Like not to be flippant but it doesn't Yeah matter as much as losing a $25 Million check and then for the $25 Million check you're feeling like wow I Need a lot more proof points and so the Pressure on the company to get to those Proof points is higher so I mean think That's where that series B does feel Like the middle child like lost moment Where you could be doing a great job and Unless you've got the right Dynamic of Growth but managed expenses and managed

Burn which is again so hard to like Thread the needle right then everybody Would rather just wait they're like I'd Rather pay 3x next round or I'd rather You know pay 3x the prior round because No matter what it's still cheaper than The round that's like in the middle I Think that's a little hard for Founders Though cuz it's like 2021 or so like There was less of that right I think the Criteria was not as strict investors Really weren't necessarily expecting as Much it was more about growth growth Growth and so you know now it's like Completely shifted so Founders are like Oh Whiplash okay now we need to change Our mindsets we have to run our Businesses completely differently and so Yeah I can see where that would be Challenging for everybody involved but At the same time I don't think it's a Bad thing necessarily to have have Higher standards for anyone right to Have higher standards I don't think That's necessarily A Bad Thing and maybe Just from a practical standpoint 21 was The anomaly yeah this is how it should Have stayed and it was starting to get Real loose in 21 where you know funding Rounds were happening with no traction And you're like well it's fine if that's Going to be your first round and it just Happens to be kind of a a big bet and What have you but at growth stage to be

Doing huge valuation gigantic rounds With very nominal traction it just means That you're always investing so far Ahead of where you're actually executing That you're just never able to catch up And at some point everything needs to be Repriced and so you know going back to Like where are we in the cyle last year Was kind of quiet because if you didn't Have to raise you certainly didn't want To come out if you did have to raise you Were going to get a pretty steep cut Just like the public markets were down Over 50% so of course private markets Shouldn't be be kind of immune to that But people didn't really want to have to Take it until they had to and so that Started to flush out and I think you're Still seeing the tail end of that where Companies are in good shape and at some Point you have to raise more funding if You want to do something more aggressive Than just kind of pets along and be Break Even or slightly profitable and That's where I think all that repricing Happens and then you get back to a place Where the companies are appropriately Valued for their stage and then we can All get back to work but I do feel like The last 18 months to 2 years there was A desire for everybody to just wait and See and not be the one to deliver bad News we didn't want to under cut the Price on companies that we knew would be

Good companies but just I don't know it Feels bad to have to be the one to say Hey we're going to give you a 50% you Know valuation cut yeah I can imagine But like as I've talked with some other VCS about you know it's still sometimes It's better to do a Down Round than Potentially run out of money at some Point right so you know there's when You're faced with that alternative what Many of us did I think in the ecosystem Was we did it ourselves we talked to the Founders a Syndicate that was an Existing investor Syndicate you'd have a Conversation and just be like hey you Know here's where we're at if we want to Raise qualified you know good new Partner and they don't want to do this Dirty Work of you know kind of repricing Maybe we should just do it ourselves Take the hit ourselves and then come out And just have a a clean next step and so I think you know everybody hangover Happened everybody got sober everyone Drank their water and their electrolytes And I think everyone's like ready to Start a new day which is exciting and You know we feel we've been making some Great new Investments that you know Haven't been announced yet but you know Really exciting to see the caliber of Founders that are still here and that's The other thing is after a bit of a Challenging time whoever's left still

Really wants to do it you know they're Not doing it because it feels sexy and Like I want to be on the cover of barbs And you know whatever like it's you Really want to do this and you know it's Hard so I think that bodess well for the Ecosystem yeah last but not least I Wanted to touch on the IPO Market yeah Obviously last year was super slow super Quiet when it came to IPOs we are almost At mid year and we had a a spurt of time Where we saw some companies go public we Kept track of rubrics IPO which that Company filed to go public in early April there was ibata that also yep Ibata just went but they're trading well You know but it's it's been quiet it's Been quiet I mean did you think this Year is going to be more active on the IPO front I mean the good news is 23 was Slow there were five IPOs but the Majority of them were in the last Quarter or the last handful of months of The year so it was slow all year and Then you know a few of them just kind of Pushed out and then this year we've had Four which I would say is pretty good Because you know that's already tracking To more than what we did In23 and so that feels good I think the Other thing is that you know the trading Multiples are relatively reasonable for The average of all the companies that Have gone public in the last couple of

Years I I pulled some numbers here just Because I knew wanted to talk about it But the average we have on 2024 Revenue Multiple is a 12.4 and a 9.5 on 25 you Know forward multiple so it just kind of Back to like a good oldfashioned normal Multiple level and you still have some That are trading at 30 plus X like Estera and arm and you know some of the More super technical companies but even Reddit I mean reddit's trading at eight To nine times yeah so I think you're Just getting back to a place where good Companies I think there's a number of Great companies that are waiting in the Wings and they've survived the last Couple years coming out even stronger as Companies and with stronger sort of Profiles unit economics all of that and So you know I think not to create Lemonade out of lemons but I think They're better companies today than they Would have been two years ago if they Went public two years ago and so Everyone's waiting to see if the market Continues to stay stable and I think you Know the macro environment today is Still all up in the air you've got Elections happening you've got War I Mean you've got so much stuff still Creating anxiety and and still the Unknown or the feeling of unknown but You know I think because the companies That are waiting in the wings they're

Operating and they're profitable they Don't have to IPO if they don't feel Like the environment is productive to do So right and so the I guess the benefit Of that is we've got some great Businesses to come that are going to Exit and I think bring a lot more life And energy to the markets but timing Wise I don't have to go this year you Know like they're not going to run out Of money no one's pressuring no rush so You know do they wait until post elction And kind of figuring out where things Shake out and maybe that kind of lands In 2025 doesn't seem unreasonable to do That and we're already in end of May so You're kind of looking at it's either Next coup months or you probably wait Because it's a lot of action happening At the end of the year right I do have a Feeling we'll see more 2025 it's not Going to be as quiet as last year but I Don't think so not like a super frenzy Brush and the companies that I work with That have the option to consider this They're just getting ready you know just Building the muscles and kind of acting And behaving internally as though they Were public and if it turns out then Maybe it's not a good idea to go public Then they won't but I Feel Like It Prepares the business all around for a Better more successful exit moment if That's what they choose to do and

Hopefully then the investors Public Market investors reward them for that And also you know you want them to be Successful after they go public so it's Not just a one hit wonder right you got To like sustain that and so being able To watch the cohort of the last two Years just kind of continue to show Growth continue to Show Stable trading Multiples I think all of that would give People more confidence to take the Plunge and my partner Brian says there's A notion of like the sacrificial lamb Like the company that just rips off the Bandaid and goes for it and if it goes Well then everyone else goes and if it Doesn't go well then everyone's like oh Maybe it's not a good way to describe it That kind of like the guinea pig in a Way too but yeah that's actually a good Way to describe it we'll see I'm very Curious I know there's a number of Companies I've been following that are Uh eagerly anticipated to go public but You know are still not there yet so We'll see well this has been so much fun But we we've got to wrap up now but Yuri Thank you so much for joining us this Was great really En and too I know our listeners learned A lot as I did where can they find you On social media oh thanks Maran it's Been fun so I'm at Yuri Kim so yurikim On X and you can find Foreigner at

Foreigner ventures.com awesome and you Can find us on X and threads at Equity Pod and be sure to come back on Friday We've got another great episode for you And of course if you like what you hear It leave us a rating and a review Is produced by Teresa Lo cons solo with Editing by Kell Bryce Durban is our Illustrator and we'd like to give a big Thanks to our audience development team And Henry pet who manages TechCrunch Audio products thanks so much for Listening and we'll talk to you next Time