Can Bitcoin overtake Ethereum, Solana, & Cardano as a top NFT & token platform?

The crypto Community is waking up I Think what is happening here is that People are waking up to this idea that They can build on bitcoin tokens are Coming to bitcoin that's gonna happen at This point I think what I'm bullish on Though is that somebody invented a System that was better better for Bitcoin long term can Bitcoin overtake Ethereum or Solana or cardano as a top Nft and token platform now this Conversation today with Pete Rizzo it's Less about Bitcoin overtaking ethereum And more about Bitcoin building out its Digital economy to compete for market Share on the same level Bitcoin historian Pete Rizzo Editor-at-large for Bitcoin magazine and Kraken joins us to talk about Bitcoin Ordinal nfts Bitcoin BRC 20 tokens this Is a new paradigm in Bitcoin use case I Just hope the maximalists don't cancel Him for having this conversation with us As a Bitcoin historian one of the Articles that you wrote that I liked was A very thoughtful write-up of Bitcoin Maximalism and so many people Bitcoin Only people will talk about Bitcoin Maximalism as that signal everything Else is noise and it's not very nuanced What I liked about yours is it took us Through the history it took us through Maybe some of the reasons My question for you is when you wrote

That did you did you write that because You like maybe an Udi or Nick Carter Thought there was maybe a problem in the Community that you wanted to kind of Address or you just wrote it totally Agnostically or or or what did you think That's a great question I think you know My intent with that piece was to try to Understand and Define Bitcoin maximalism And to kind of get at what I was talking About where there's some other Discrepancies right I think you'll You'll find that bitcoiners are you know You know as much as we have this kind of Like uh kind of shared culture that's Emerged on Twitter a lot of people think Very different and very specific things About the future of Bitcoin and how It'll pan out so I think a lot of that For me was sort of saying okay can I Make the argument for Bitcoin maximalism Can I write it down and what would it be Because I ultimately do feel like for Myself again Bitcoin maximum was really Important to me it's one of the reasons That I'm still in the industry right is Is that I understand now I think that We want to be intolerant of other things We have to be intolerant of other things Because the amount of scamming and Grifting that like occurs in this space Is completely like untenable right like That we have to be opposed to that but I Think it was a bit of a critique right

Because you know I I disagree a little Bit that Bitcoin maximalism sort of Bitcoin maximalism has to have a stance On the other cryptocurrencies other than That they just don't exist in rural Scams so my where I kind of came to the Through with this is that Bitcoin Maximalism should exist it has to exist And it and the way that it Definitionally has to exist is that You know if we accept that these other Cryptocurrencies exist and we want Bitcoin to be you know the one chain Rule and Rule them all and they kind of Do One Financial economy you know why do We want that because it has a better Monetary policy it's built on Sounder Fundamentals if we want that we have to Out-compete those other things we we Have to build things for the people who Are doing those use cases that are Fundamentally better uh again again the Ones that work right the ones that stand The test of time where you've seen them Work for six or seven years and for me That was kind of one of the things where I became you know pretty uh you know Looking at the arguments again you know Open to the ordinals argument you know Essentially okay maybe nfts I don't Believe in them maybe I don't Participate in the market but maybe this Is the best way to do them on bitcoin And if it is the best way to do them on

Bitcoin and the assurances to those that Those users have by participating in a Bitcoin nft economy versus another nft Economy or higher because this is true Right data that is secured by the Bitcoin blockchain that they can my Consensus has a higher level assurances Then maybe that is something that we Should support because again if this Economy is going to exist this nft Economy is going to exist it doesn't Require us it exists elsewhere so either We're going to serve it or someone else Is going to serve it and if we refuse to Serve it you can't call those other Cryptocurrency scams because they're They're serving a legitimate economic Function and demand that someone else Has so ultimately I kind of feel like it Sort of like this is that I do believe That I think Bitcoin you know this is One of the great dramas in the space is Like can Bitcoin expand to do all the Things and if it doesn't expand and do All the things well then you have to Allow that maybe some of those things Will Exist Elsewhere and maybe some of Those other cryptocurrencies are not Scams again maybe some of them is it I Don't know how many number of how many Are on coin Market these days it's like 36 10 000 now right yes the number of 24 000 you know definitely not like we Should want to minimize the number of

Cryptocurrencies that we have right so The the one of the things here is that Like I think Bitcoin maximalism has to Embrace this idea of like crypto Minimalism right cryptocurrencies exist They exist today many people use them There is an inherent non-zero value to a Cryptocurrency like a great example of This would be like Pepe or any standard Meme coin you can buy it you can trade It you can sell it it has a non-zero Value like I don't again do I think These coins are should you invest in Them absolutely if I cannot you would be Crazy to do that but you know Empirically you can go on an exchange You can withdraw it to a self-custodial Lot you can send it to somebody across The world and it has some base level Functionality look I wish I could Explain that away I wish that wasn't True but it is you can do that like That's a just a factual statement about The reality of the world so uh again Like to the extent that those things Exist uh we have to come to terms with That right so are are they scams Um certainly I don't think anybody who's Investing any of those things is going To make money long term nor would advise It but again so you know you have these Different versions of reality right so I Think Bitcoin maximalism is a bit of an

Odd place Um you know it is true I think the Bitcoin can expand and do more things I Think ordinals has proven this you know I think one of the interesting things About ordinals is broke the mental model Of the entire crypto Community these Were people who were told for years the Bitcoins is boring down rock can't do Anything that other chains do and all of A sudden you have ordinals come out and The entire nft Market's moving over to Bitcoin almost overnight they're like Wow we can do it better on bitcoin so I Thought that was a tremendous moment Right where you really kind of started Chipping away at I think a lot of the Untruths that are in the space right This idea that like Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies are separate things or That they have separate use cases or Like Look I'm sorry all these things are you Know data structures shared amongst Peak Consensus systems with peers they're Like almost identical from You know and if you look at any Cryptocurrency again that's why they Have That's why even the most terrible Cryptocurrency has some functionality Like like because they're similar Computing types of computing systems uh And so if that's true uh then you know

Some of these mental models that we have Just break down right and I don't know Where they break down that's why it's Not on me right like I have to like Figure that out but I think you know Bitcoin maximalism is an odd place right It's I think we're finding the Bitcoin Can advance some people aren't Comfortable with that and a lot of these Other cryptocurrencies are not going to Zero immediately they're not just Failing fantastically like luno or Whatever right so um Again I like to approach it from the Level of science right pretend that you Were doing science right Um what do we know about these things What assumptions do we have we know the Big one's not going away we know it's Going up in value over time we know the Network's getting stronger every year Uh we know I was competing against other Financial systems what do we know about Other cryptocurrencies we know that Other people love launching them there's A million of them uh and they have at This point somewhat questionable uses You know 10 years in that's kind of Where we're at right like so again I Think you have to go into some of this With an open mind personally I think you Know we need Bitcoin maximalism we need To be intolerant of these other things We need to be deeply skeptical of the

Claims that they're making But if we're able to do some of the Things that they're promising better I find it hard to I find it hard to make The argument that we shouldn't or can't Do that that to me is very hard I don't Know how you have a Bitcoin maximalist Culture where you know you can do Something like an nft better than Another cryptocurrency chain and then You would like refuse to do that because You think that those things are scams It's like we should just out-compete That market right I like the idea that Bitcoin is taking ethereum's biggest Market but you know if there were two Economies it's like we're just taking The manufacturing industry I think That's great I think that competition is Good we should want that because we Ultimately want cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin to be useful to people right we Want it to be we want people to use them For the things they want to do Um and again I think like competition Between these things is good right does That mean nfts are all valid does that Mean you should buy nfts like absolutely Not but nfts exist on bitcoin you can Look at how they Exist Elsewhere I think the technology looks good looks Better it provides users more benefits So to the extent that people want to Participate in those markets

Um you know we have an opportunity to Make it better for them so I think we Should take it It's really refreshing and really cool That you're seeing you know very Passionate or even maybe like bullish on You know Bitcoin ordinals you know when We see other like Bitcoin leaders some Of them right for Bitcoin magazine you Know Jimmy song The Swan guys who seem Kind of dismissive even Peter McCormick Very dismissive of Bitcoin ordinals but But you're bullish sounds like Yeah you're kind of making me out come Out a little bit as a a little bit here I I think what I'm bullish on though is That somebody invented a system that was Better so again I try to put like what Am I not specifically bullish on like my My standpoint on like nfts as an Investment like it has not changed you Know I do not think that if you're Buying you know a digital image and You're expecting that to like accrue Value over 10 or 15 years you you should Think about that decision but if that Market is going to exist and people are Going to participate in that then I Think you have some obligation to solve Some of their problems I thought that Was what was really cool about what Bitcoin magazine did with its ordinal Sale where you know look people buying Nfts are getting scammed all the time

Like their way that these auctions work You can put in fake bids there's a lot Of watch trading there's sending Auctions where the number just goes up And you don't even know ultimately you Know what the actual price was so with The Bitcoin magazine ordinal well you Know they minted the covers of their Classic magazines and it was a Descending option right where Essentially all bids were on the Blockchain pre-signed Bitcoin Transactions transparent and ultimately The bidder got the confidence of you Know participating in that option Knowing that they ultimately kind of you Know weren't uh you know there wasn't This like flurry of fake activity Happening and they got real price Discovery right they bought that ordinal What was worth to them So again I think you know these are some Of these things where okay do I like the Activity do I like the thing that's Going on and then as someone who's kind Of building the Bitcoin economy like What responsibility do I have to people Who are doing things like if you see a Bunch of children like playing with fire You're going to go intervene and like You know tell them to stop doing that There's some level that you have to say Like okay well hey if you're going to do This you know here's a better way and

Here's a way where you were going like Your user protections are higher right So I think that Um yeah I am frustrated that more people Haven't embraced that because I do think That you know we in Bitcoin Bitcoin has Been existed for 14 years it's not a big Secret that we've struggled to get the Mainstream to sort of like understand And embrace our cause and like really Wake up to what's going on with Bitcoins I think deeply like a lot of these Reactions like against ordinals like Against some of the things like the People coming to bitcoin to build now Are unfortunate and they they speak to This idea that like We can't have empathy for those other People because they're doing bad things Or they are bad people like who worked On other projects that were bad Um I think if Bitcoin continues to Maintain that mentality uh then it will Be very tough for like the Bitcoin Community to grow and I and I I find Myself someone who's like than I Am Pro ordinals I am against this Mentality that we need to label other People as like being bad or like use Cases of Bitcoin is bad because Ultimately the end of the day a lot of These arguments they sort of break down Right so there's this idea that like we Can't have non-financial data on bitcoin

What does like non-financial data this Is a zero or a one like it's it's it's Actual it's a data on the blockchain how Do you know it's for non-financial Purposes like what does that even mean Uh you know so and we have to commit to Like realizing that people will change Like if ultimately you believe that Bitcoin has the best or value and it's The best system that everybody will use Then you should be very confident uh in That these people will change their Minds over time so for me when I look at Ordinals again I see this movement of The crypto Community is waking up They're realizing that their narratives They're not really that correct because You know Bitcoin shouldn't be able to do Any of these things because that's what They've been told for all this time and It can do all these things and so They're doing what people do in a Situation where their mental models are Adapting they're you know doing new Things on bitcoin that I'll just be Honest like are pretty dumb like brc20 Is probably not going to be a token Standard uh that lasts on bitcoin for a Very long time uh but it's not going to Be the last version of a token protocol System that happens on bitcoin there are Other ones that even bitcoiners are Building there's RGB which is now live There's tarot which is built on the

Lightning Network there's synonym which Is John carvalho's company Um so you know there's this there's this Weird idea I think that people have that Like tokens are coming to bitcoin that's Gonna happen at this point right so Um again I think like we have to kind of Not demonize other people right we have To realize that they're going on their Own Journeys and if their ultimate end Of their journey is to then just agree With us that Bitcoin is the best money That they shouldn't have ever spent Their Bitcoin and now they're happy Being in Bitcoin and they want to Advance Bitcoin then So what that was my own trajectory that Was what happened to me like so I don't I so I feel like a very personal like Um you know I just feel it just feels Like a very personal attack I guess like When I see those the kind of things Going on because you know again it's Like who who are you to judge like Somebody else's intellectual Journey Right so it's like okay this is a bad Person who's coming here doing like bad Things and we should kind of chase them Away You know it's just hard for me to deal With that I think because You know Um we have to be inclusive to people and Their talents and I just think that that

That's better for Bitcoin long term is To be open to that right so should we Say that some of these things are dumb Look I've said that Bitcoin the brc20 Standard token unlikely to be a thing That lasts you can just kind of look at How how it works you can see kind of all The the chain activity it causes you Know but are the people who are building On brc20 I'd encourage you to look at Other Solutions look at the kind of top Level things that other bitcoiners have Built to do tokens on other other layers And you know hopefully they'll migrate There over time right I just think we Have to be confident of the best Solution will win up I mean that just has to be if you don't Believe in markets like right if you're If that's your argument right so I think Um You know I just see it again as Experimentation I don't I'm not afraid Of what's going on I'm not I'm Specifically bullish on like either of These like implementations like Specifically but I do think that Something is happening here I think what Is happening here is that people are Waking up to this idea that they can Build on bitcoin they didn't really Understand that this was possible and Sure you're going to see a culture Clash From these communities but I do think

There is a benefit to welcoming and Educating these in these people because That's I think a fair thing to do right Like I don't hold it against them uh That they participate in other nft Projects or other blockchains or maybe They like you know bought into Solana or Ethereum or really like kind of thought One of these things was you know Going to be the blockchain like that Like wins them all right I think that we Have to remember that at the end of the Day like you can approach people in good Faith like understand that they you know Maybe just had the wrong idea about Things and maybe they could be a great Contributor to bitcoin how do you know How do you know maybe they'll think I'm Out with the next Solution that's even Better and you'll love it because it's Such a great thing so I don't know I Think I have an open door policy Um one of my colleagues to make my Magazine calls it Waters warm maximalism You know I just think that like treating People with empathy and like you know Having strong disagreements is fine but You know then there's also like Demonizing a whole group of people for No reason and that's just like I can't Get behind that so I don't know I hope That answers your question totally I Like it